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Xfire Debate Club 7th Meeting: Game Economies
August 21st, 2007 (Open Floor Transcript)
[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Welcome to the 7th meeting of the Xfire Debate Club!
[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: We are very excited to have you all here today!
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: I see trading on the net like gold farming and item trading as bad as selling your character online
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: just shows pure laziness
t3hM: Yeah
ŃęЯÐ^LN: There are people that don't have money to buy gold and I think there should be a way to buy gold using other ways such as selling a character for gold which I have not seen yet
danzar: I disagree
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: well, i mean think of it this way, its like any good, people get it and sell it.
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: aslong as people are buying it, there isn't anything we can do.
Khisanth: and it unbalances the game heavily for those who want to do it the way it's supposed to be done
]SoV[ Ferris: Of all the MMOs I've played, it seems to me like FFXI has it the worst, on the 'gooldfarming' front
Blatant: you cant stop gold farms what you can stop is gold being worth as much
Ninja Panda: Yeah, that is the problem.
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: and it messes with the economy in a way too
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: causes inflation
danzar: People that dont have the time to spend hours weeks at a time to aquire things should have an outlet to still obtain these things
[ZiiP]Lazzars: ingame inflation
[ZiiP]Lazzars: what is the world coming to
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: well, then its not playing the game
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: its just buying it
]SoV[ Ferris: You can't stop anything, how much it affects the game depends on how much the management takes care of the problem
Theory: does gold farming though actually put people at a disadvantage? i mean maybe in the arena and such like wiht WoW but i dont really see how it effects the overall play of others
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: I mean
|WND|mastermc0: do you think if the companies making the games sold gold in an official way it might control the problem?
KoF ßmkħ: yeah, agred
lordscrewball: yes take me week to get few items
danzar: not jus tthe peopel that have all the time they wish to comitt to this
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: Talk about an un fair advantage.
ŃęЯÐ^LN: I do sorta believe that without buying gold with money there'd probably be a situation that can be compared to the Great Depression in RL in game
Цnzinc: Also, it would be nice to sell your items/cash once you've quit the game.
=WFC=Ltc.R3con[B]: yeah for example in wow the prices of some items in the auction house are insane and it cud b caused by gold farming
t3hM: The game is supposed to be based on ingame skill, not how rich you are irl.
*Mailbox Arson: thats not true
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: you can eliminate gold.
*Mailbox Arson: you guys... do you even play wow?
Ninja Panda: I played...
Blatant: i did
=WFC=Ltc.R3con[B]: yes
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: therefor there cant be a depression
ŃęЯÐ^LN: I play WoW
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: see the point of a game is to feel like after you are done with it you acomplised somthing and buying gold or items even characters takes away the point of the game
Ninja Panda: And got bored haha...
]SoV[ Ferris: This debate is not only about WoW.
Khisanth: yes
Цnzinc: I don't play WoW
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: yeah, but everyone plays wow.
lordscrewball: yes all time i buy gold every few months
*Mailbox Arson: inflation in game is natural
=WFC=Ltc.R3con[B]: yah we kno
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: ^^
[ZiiP]Lazzars: if you want to spend your money on getting soething more out of the game then you can but mostly everyone will dispise you
Ninja Panda: It is about all game economy.
*Mailbox Arson: the only way to eliminate money from the game is alright
Aro: Well, Gold is a depreciated form of currency.
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: so replace the world gold with something else.
Ninja Panda: Well either way, you cannot stop gold farming in the essence, or any service in any game.
lordscrewball: at least improve the drop rate for items
Ninja Panda: How would they do that Nocturn?
Aro: If it takes effort to get gold it has real word value.
Khisanth: Wouldn't they just farm whatever it is that gold gets replaced by?
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: but buying money in a game accelerates the inflation rate
]SoV[ Ferris: FFXI's problem with 'goldfarming' has not only caused the economy to go to heck in a handbasket, but it causes people who are trying to get any gear, or money themselves, to suffer, as well as drive the playerbase down.
]SoV[ Ferris: It affects more than the economy.
danzar: But i see it as this i spend hours working and making money in a RL level but have limited time to play the games in love in my feel time so why shouldn't i be able to have the things that other people have ingame. its the same as me having somone work for me in RL just on a gmaing level
Redbullos: i play WoW every day 4-6 houers :)
[ZiiP]Lazzars: sad
ŃęЯÐ^LN: lol
Цnzinc: good point danzar
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: Part of the problem is the game creators.
Khisanth: What about most of the players who can't afford to jsut buy stuff they haven't earned?
dakirakhartas: careful with that problem statement
Aro: WoW any many other MMos have no way of controlling inflation
danzar: learn more to makke more money
RaNgEr: i wish i could buy bacon ingame...
Ninja Panda: The game creators aren't to blame no one is.
Khisanth: They would eventually jsut quit
]SoV[ Ferris: In WoW, goldfarming doesn't really affect much, because it doesn't completely halt anyone from getting anything.
Theory: but most of the better epics are bop
ŃęЯÐ^LN: The reasoning for most games is to have fun so being able to basically things with unlimited possibilities is exciting to most players
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: I see it as that it affects everything not just the games econemy that it affects all the players that play In somewhat of an emotional state. Plus thatd mean rich people are the best at wow.
Trentish: I don't have time to get good at counter-strike like the other players, I'm going to buy a program that lets me aim better!
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: no the problem if its against the rules in the game it should be moderated very closly
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: exactly n3rd
]SoV[ Ferris: That's where you get the first trouble.
[ZiiP]Lazzars: i suppose its a good way for people to experience the whole game but when it becomes things like unlocking items that others can't get then i object
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: like watching for sizable money transfers
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: Well, if we are getting on buying things what about cash shops? they do the exact same thing/
SaLS111: its just stupid to buy 0s and 1s with real money
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: i think that game makers shoud control gold cost bey selling it
MINDFREAK: most games have a program which can catch gold farmers but there are to many people doing it to stop it
]SoV[ Ferris: NO.
danzar: now i dont agree with mass advitising in game.. To heck with spam !!!!!!
t3hM: I still think that what you have in the game is supposed to be achieved by playing the game, if else it's not worth playing the game at all if you're only going to sit there and throw away money
Ninja Panda: I agree with you there danzar...
Motile Target: does gold farming actually cause an unhelthy level of inflation though?
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: true
[ZiiP]Lazzars: its not like the devs of any game would set up some sort of control over the worth of gold. that far too much work
=WFC=Ltc.R3con[B]: yes
]SoV[ Ferris: NO NO NO. If the game makers sold the money, it would be WAY worse.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah
Blatant: You see if you Elimate the X factor Gold..and Y factor Gear then you come up with Z the the Fun Factor and also it takes away the grind...make each of them not worth much or as much and so the economey would be ok since gold isent needed that much
Aro: Is gold farming even illegal?
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: cash shops are mostly limeted to items that ar worthless most of the time like maple story and silkroad. on top of it all they are not permanent
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Cause theyd be breaking there own rules.
]SoV[ Ferris: Because then the people who can't afford it suffer immensely from inflation.
ŃęЯÐ^LN: But mostly gold is used for buying stuff that are not BoP when bought from Auction Houses so if you are gonna get some of those instance BoPs you end up having to play the game anyway while also getting money at the same time so buying gold doesn't seem senseful to me
lordscrewball: like on archlord you can buy ingame gredits
danzar: I agree shouldnt have game companys sellig there own items
lordscrewball: credits
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah if you want BoP items true.
Ninja Panda: Game companies selling their own items would demolish any essense of gaming period.
danzar: that would make the valuse of things un level
Theory: and most epics are BoP
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: But alot of people just buy items for gold.
Ninja Panda: But again the free games out there such as Silkroad do that..
Theory: good ones anyways'
]SoV[ Ferris: If they sold their own currency, it would be 10x worse than goldselling from players, because they would sell it at a good rate, since they aren't competing/
Ninja Panda: They have to get a profit one way or another.
danzar: because only the buyer and the suppie makes the prices for things
=WFC=Ltc.R3con[B]: even if the game makers sold ingame gold it still wouldnt fix the problem
]SoV[ Ferris: It would worsen it.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: depending on how you see it on the cheapest site what the gold/money ratio it is.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: people would buy items sell it in auction house and thinking to themselves of making a profit.
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: When did the idea of buying items start? Like before D2?
danzar: LOL
[TTHS]Prophet: I think the debate has changed if what I am seeing on www.xfire.com/debate is accurate - 60% of people who have said that 500 gold in WoW is worth something.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah.
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: Well there lies the thing, should ALL good items be BoP? or we just going to limit all trading and make it completely impossible for people to interact? I mean.. it makes no sence, we should simply not buy gold, because in the end the people will do what the people want.
danzar: long time ago
styxnkc: way before d2
t3hM: Like on the stone age?
Цnzinc: It would be nice to have a player to player system. Try to get rid of the big gold farming companies.
danzar: back in the paper days
Motile Target: we should talk about how in game economies differ due to thae fact that there's not a stable amount of currency ever in use
Blatant: To help solve dont make gear such a big part of the game since people wont need to spend hours getting it and its not overpowered or only be a PvP or PvE game dont balance both
Khisanth: But if you're already paying money to play the game in the first place, you should be forced to buy gold on top of that just to keep up with the people who do it.
]SoV[ Ferris: D2 was the first REAL MMO that had problems with buying items
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Gold is worth something to different people.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: considering you can sell your gold to gold farmers.
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: try Umltima online
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: overall it is worth something
]SoV[ Ferris: Because now, they can spam and sell freely because Blizz has all but abandoned it
|WND|mastermc0: so if you all don't think an official way of selling gold is the answer in your opinion what is?
Aro: The harder it is to get gold, the higher the prices are to buy gold. The more eople who have tons of gold, the less it's actually worth
styxnkc: i think that was due to all the hacked items that people bought that would get deleted
Trentish: **Question for you guys: How would you feel about people having the ability to buy (for a real life dollar or two) an AWP or a powerful weapon right off the bat in a game like Counter-Strike?
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: er ultima that was a great MMO but it had problems with people selling money too
[TTHS]Prophet: Diablo 2 wasn't an MMO but it did have economic issues. Games like Eve Online are going the right way emplying professional economists to continually check the state of the economy.
Khisanth: no, an official gold selling would messit up even worse
KoF ßmkħ: i think you shoud earn it yourself
]SoV[ Ferris: That would be stupid, Trent, lol
danzar: you do earn it yourslef
[ZiiP]Lazzars: lame is CSS, as thats just giving them an immediate advantage
danzar: i eanr every daollar i make
=WFC=Ltc.R3con[B]: CSS has nothing to do with this debate
KoF ßmkħ: bf2 wouldnt be fun if you could buy the ranks
Ninja Panda: Think as a goldfarmer: You spend what 6 or so hours farming constant mobs, selling items etc, making gold, then you sell it to someone who needs it for say 250$ (1,000g). In 6 hours you just made 250$.
Aro: I don't play Css, but i know weapon is as only as good as the player who wields it.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: yeah offical gold selling would make ti worse.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: because you could obviously trust the makers
styxnkc: some people like doctors and people who travel alot dont have the time to sit back and enjoy farming in the game tho so they shoose to buy online
Motile Target: for a company to sell gold though, you would have to create a stable ammount in the game
Motile Target: otherewise there would be lot of inflation
[ZiiP]Lazzars: bf2 accounts used to get sold all the time
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: and they wouldnt charge you as much due to they can get it free.
Aro: official gold selling could regulation inflation actually
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: so merchanting and gold farming are the same things?
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: thats not hard with really big raids
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: and alot of people dont buy gold for the reason that they dont trust the sites/
]SoV[ Ferris: I do sympathize with some goldsellers though, some do it as the only way they can make money, and they get ripped off badly
danzar: godl farmers spend alot of time farming.. its not like that dupe it all and sell
The Chosen One: Excuse me for testing out this chat. (can't see what I type currently)
Theory: gold farming to me is wrong but i dont see it as a huge problem yet...sure it can give a player epic mounts and the best enchants/BoE's but when you put this all together the whle MMO community isnt being effected that much
]SoV[ Ferris: But overall it's just a dumb idea.
danzar: no
]SoV[ Ferris: Because it just makes other players' experiences worse, to make yours better.
Khisanth: If you have some poeple buying gold and then buying better equipment, far above the stuff you'd have otherwise, it tears up any equality in a pvp game
danzar: its makes it a even plaing ground for all players
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: exactly but it eventually evens out.
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: then how about eleminating gold trade? is some games that is bad but can be done simply by setting up a personal auction house allso known as a mertchant would be difficult for some but could elimate money for gold issues
=WFC=Ltc.R3con[B]: gold farming make the game harder for lower levels
Ninja Panda: Gold farming is like a cheat, but again it is also a use to people who do not have time to farm money. So its more of 50/50 in the game world.
Theory: iand even if you do have the best gear you are likely not to be that good if you were power levelled and had all this money given to you
styxnkc: yes but there are people who can do that without buying the gold as well
Trentish: How is that even? You're using outside influence to get an unfair advantage.
[TTHS]Prophet: I don't think RMT is the evil people think it is for the reason that it is morally wrong. I simply think that if companies were to say, "we'll sell you gold," they would be creating a massive logistical and economical issue for themselves. The amount of constant moderation a system that takes legitimate gold selling into account would take is outrageous.
]SoV[ Ferris: Exactly, Trent.
The Chosen One: Regardless of what it does its simply illegal aswell. Besides other reasons that should be already enough.
=WFC=Ltc.R3con[B]: it infaltes prices
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: exactly
Khisanth: exactly
qman3433: buying gold is still cheating
Ninja Panda: If you end it, people will leave cause they don't have time to deal with that. If you don't, prices will soar, and eventually players who do not want to spend real life money on virtual money will leave.
[ZiiP]Lazzars: some people just don't have the time for playing extensivly and need to cut corners to get the full extent of the game available to them
Ninja Panda: It is more of a lose lose situation either way.
Trentish: and please don't kid yourselves guys, casual players aren't the only ones buying gold
ŃęЯÐ^LN: The concentration on the game is being disturbed by gold spammers which is why WoW has created the report spam option in a box when you right click a name in chat
Trentish: I know numerous *hardcore* gamers buying gold
[TTHS]Prophet: @The Chosen One: Gold Selling isn't illegal as they do not sell the gold. They give you the gold. They sell you the time it took to get the gold. They charge you labour and nothing mroe which isn't illegal.
KoF ßmkħ: yes, gold spammers annoy everyone...
Khisanth: Most of the casual gamers don't bother with it
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: Buying gold is bad, it's as simple as that, what would happen if it was the other way around and people were simply buying real money for gold? We would have an economic crisis.
lordscrewball: those chars get deleted after 1 hr of spamming to mak enew ones
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah loose loose cause atleast 5% or more of mmo's buy gold / powerleveling services and would either quit or get extremely pissed if it was gone.
KoF ßmkħ: agreed
Ninja Panda: Gold spamming takes it to a whole different level.
]SoV[ Ferris: It's not illegal, it's just against the TOS
danzar: No using your time is the same as you using your money ...Time is money and money is about time... with that being said that is the reason gold selling is good
Blatant: It stills screws up the economy though
danzar: every sec of my day is worth X amount of dollars
Trentish: so the kid who's parents are independantly wealthy gets to have an unfair advantage over the rest of us?
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: @[TTHS]Prophet but it still voids the EULA
t3hM: A game is supposed to be played by the rules, that's it
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Thats stupid
danzar: who is talking about children
KoF ßmkħ: agreed with trentish
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: the construction skill in runescape was made to balance the economy, but it only worked for a little while before some players stacked up 25k planks
[Xfire] SDaria: *****FIRST QUESTION*****
Joe: In order to frame the debate, what is "virtual property," to you, in a sentence?
[ZiiP]Lazzars: if the rules arn't inforced then they arn't rules
styxnkc: the econemywould still have outlandish prices without gold selling
Theory: how does buying goldgive an unfair advantage?
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: @ [TTHS]Prophet you are still doing non gaming tradign
The Chosen One: Its basicly cheating and the same for getting a speeding ticket. We all say we won't drive to hard (regardless of having a licence) and the prices for tickets may be $1000 for all people care but the people who drive to hard will whine the hardest when they get caught.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: People who are doing better than others in the real world should not have an advatage of where the stand in the wealth world.
danzar: the average age of (the biggest right now) wow isnt children age
Theory: you are most likely not even ging to be good at the game anyways'
=WFC=Ltc.R3con[B]: ive played mmorpgs and all that i have played where gold farming is the economy was all messed up
Khisanth: Buying gold allows you to buy better stuff, which makes your character better than the expected average at that level.
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: Virtual Property is like real property, except if the company who controls the game wants to take it away, they can, like land in canada.
]SoV[ Ferris: Virtual property is something leased to you by the game maker, by the cost of buying the game, or the monthy fee, that is a privilege to havem not a right.
Цnzinc: I don't think it gives that much of an unfair advantage for some people. It just cuts the farming part of an MMO out of the game.
KoF ßmkħ: [virtuallyblind.com] Ben: I think it depends entirely on what you agree to when you sign the EULA. You can own everything you create, earn, etc. or nothing. agreed
danzar: I agree it need guide lines for gold farming but not death to it
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Agreed
Theory: like i said before...how many of thebest epics are BoE's?
Ninja Panda: Agreed.
[TTHS]Prophet: Virtual property to me is anything that is sold/bought strictly in a virtual environment. I stop short of saying, "games," because they some of these areas are not games. Second Life to some people is life, for example.
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: virtual property is effort put into a game weather the end result is a character money or items.
Theory: none
[ZiiP]Lazzars: virtual property is basicly loaned property, its yours untill you do something wrong with it
Aro: VP is something that the individual owns that has real world worth
The Chosen One: death to it you mean dead sentence?
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Not alot if none.
dakirakhartas: There's more to the problem than "I can buy a high lvl char" and "it messes up economies". What about the community of the game?
The Chosen One: That aswell.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah dark.
dakirakhartas: A player who buys a high lvl has no knowledge of how to play his new found killing machine
]SoV[ Ferris: The community is only affected when RMT reaches such high levels, that people get sick of it and quit.
Trentish: I think virtual property goes a little farther than "property leased out by the developer". You're spending money not only for the service, but also under the assumption that that service will continue to be there
t3hM: Everyone knows that a game can easily be destroyed when enought people starts cheating, look at CS 1.5, Gunz Online, D2 and so on, it's not fun to play if someone have an unfair advantage even if you have higher skill, it is after all that any game is supposed to rely on, if you are good at playing the game, then you are supposed to be better at the game than people who cant play the game
KoF ßmkħ: yeah agreed with dark
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: The economy is the community, they are together. you cant have happy gamers without a good economy
Цnzinc: Doesn't active farming by all players fluxuate the economy though?
The Chosen One: Maplestory has the worst community of all. But thats more hacker related. So forget what I said actually.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Obviously some people find it fun
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Because if they didnt we wouldnt have a problem.
]SoV[ Ferris: @t3hM: Gunz isn't really destroyed anymore, I haven't seen many hackers lately
Ninja Panda: Those are hackers...
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: Does the Answers from the main florr really Have to be posted in here? we can read them in the main room
Ninja Panda: They have nothing to do with gold farming...or...anything of that!
]SoV[ Ferris: And RMT is impossible in Gunz, except for characters
Blatant: well you can but gold becomes more worth having if the economey is bad but if its not then players can buy and sell from each other and have money in the pockets
danzar: Well alot of players that buy char dont even know how to play them but if they do ..it just time they trade for money its still the basic ideal
[ZiiP]Lazzars: forget main floor
styxnkc: there are some people who buy characters for reason of playing with family and friends who have already been playing the game along time and want to see what all the fuss is about even tho leveling up is part of the grand scheme i can understand wanting to play where your friends are playing now rather than ltr
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Virtual property I believe is earned or bought items ingame. Players pay the money irl, they get the rewards in game.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: It's all a matter of opinion.
danzar: agree
[ZiiP]Lazzars: if virtual property is bought with real money that doesn't make it any less real
t3hM: @Ferris I know, not any more, but look at Gunz international about a year ago, on every server there was someone killing everybody on spawn...
danzar: true
[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUESTION*****
Joe: In that vein, you kill a monster, and he drops some gold and a few items. Who owns that loot? You or the developer?
KoF ßmkħ: developer because he can just ban you and take it back
Khisanth: But what about the rights of the peopel who are playing by the rules, and get their game messed up because they don't "cheat?"
]SoV[ Ferris: The developer. You have temporary ownage rights, because you did not create the item yourself, it was given to you.
fluxxanimeluxx: can i talk
Цnzinc: Its a shared ownership I believe.
Motile Target: I would say in ordr to maintain a stble economy, the devoloper ownd the loot
KoF ßmkħ: then its theirs until they/if they get banned
Trentish: Both: As long as you pay the subscription and follow the rules set by the developers, you should be able to "own" that property
danzar: well its still to much up in the air on that to make a good case
[ZiiP]Lazzars: like i said before, its yours untill the devs want to take it away
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: You own the loot under an extent if the devolper deletes it or your account it is under there name and there game.
Aro: If you sign the EULA saying everything belongs to the develeper, if you sell the gold or does something they don't like you're scrwed. if not then it's yours
KoF ßmkħ: agreed with trentish
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Agree with Trentish
Trentish: You pay for the service as well as the assumption that the service will continue
]SoV[ Ferris: You may own it, but you cannot do everything you want to with it
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: It would be the player who is in ownership of the 'items' but the developer owns all the coding and data involved, so the developer is like a god in the world.
danzar: but hwo do you own air? that is there defense
The Chosen One: Depends whats defined in the rules I suppose. I'd be fine with officially the developer as long as it benefits the game/anti goldfarming/etc.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Air no one owns air.
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: the developer because he created the game so you can have entertainment you just use what he allows you to have weather its random or not.
danzar: the same for game items
Khisanth: It's the same as owning the rights to an idea, copyright
Aro: the air owns us really
]SoV[ Ferris: Agreed Pickles.
Aro: no air we'd die
uT | Greaterix: it's owned by the developers - they own the code, the items are part of the code. You just have temproarily leased them + all items you loot with ur monthly sub
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: technically you are borrowing it to enhance the earning experience
Ninja Panda: The creator.
danzar: its the time of use of it is what you pay for and deal with
]SoV[ Ferris: But, you only have temporary ownership of it.
[TTHS]Prophet: I think that depends on the game we are talking about. Blizzard for example, own your characters and the items on them and can stop you using them at any point so, in that situation, Blizzard own the loot. The Developer. However, there are other games where the character is owned by the player and that would mean the loot is owned by the player and not the devs.
[ZiiP]Lazzars: depends on the eula
The Chosen One: I'm fine with that since I don't do farming or hacking etc.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: It's again all a matter of opinion. Because you own the item under your charactor's name which is really to an extent the devolpers because it is there game as they created it.
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: But the question is how can you own something? All you are doing is having the privlages to play the game and if TOS states that all property belongs to them (as they do) theres not a lot you can do about it
Aro: when yoyu pay the fee you are leasing the items to do what the EUla lets you do
The Chosen One: As long as the developer controlls it well its fine.
[Xfire] Spencer: I don't mind it because it doesn't really affect me.
Trentish: So it would be totally okay for a company like Blizzard to just decide to shut down the WoW servers tomorrow? (I'm talking morally here, not legally)
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Exactly wild.
Цnzinc: leasing is a good way to put it
[Xfire] Spencer: I men, directly affect me.
=Uber= AdamX: What about game piracy? The game could be much cheaper that way, but the game would be a lot emptier..
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: If they had to yeah they could.
Trentish: without notice?
[Xfire] Spencer: I figure if I'm going to pirate a game, I wouldn't play it otherwise.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: No not without notice.
Khisanth: they could shut it down, they're legally allowed to do that
|WND|mastermc0: if the EULA ot ToS allows defines you as the owner of the digital "goods" then sure you own them... if it doesn't then the company making or publishing the game does
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: I mean they could if they wanted to
danzar: I think alot of people have over looked tha basic of all games. Which is you pay for time to play the game weather you pay a monthly fee for time to play it or you pay a one time fee to play it forever.. its still all about time
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: and you really couldnt do anything.
Ninja Panda: What stops them from not doing so?
KoF ßmkħ: whatever the tos says is what tends to go9, often they out that the service can change or end at any time
Aro: morals depends on your pont of view
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: Its in there TOS if they want to close the game now you have no right to appeal
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: But they wouldnt do that.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Us .
Khisanth: it would involve some refunds, probably lol
Ninja Panda: You can't stop a entire company from choosing what they wish to do with their own game.
]SoV[ Ferris: @Trent: It depends on the situation.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: We are giving them 15 bucks a month.
Khisanth: I would hope not, I'd be a sad camper
Aro: if you're a cruel person you see nothing morally wrong
The Chosen One: Rxactly a lot of people say they MUST and they HAVE too. But they OWN the game.
Ninja Panda: But there are also situations where that can happen. But they'd better have some explination posted, if not, millions will raid Blizzard HQ and yeah....
Aro: they do what they want with what they own
Trentish: Aro: excuse me while I go punch a puppy (it's not against my morals, I think it's just funny)
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: 9million x15 =135000000
Blatant: you are giving them 15 a month to play THEIR GAME not yours you go by there rules and if you break them they can kick/ban you
[ZiiP]Lazzars: 15 bucks pais for the right to play on the server and keep the game admined, its not a rent for your character
Khisanth: I agree with blatant
Blatant: also its not all 15 a month some places like in china pay by the hour
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah agreed.
Ninja Panda: Agreed.
Trentish: Blatant: but you are also paying under the assumption that you will continue to be able to play
Aro: when you buy the game you bought the right to use it, not to own it
The Chosen One: Some people say I pay them so I can do my own things aswell. No wrong. You pay to play by there rules.
Blatant: only about 3-4mill ar in NA
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: its like paying admin for a server
Trentish: would you pay 15 dollars a month if you knew the game was going to end in a few days?
Trentish: would it be fair for them to end it in a few days without telling you ahead of time?
The Chosen One: Blizzard is a COMPANY. Go sue em for earning money.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Not really but it would also end your payments
danzar: We pay 15 dollars a month to be able to play on there server
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: and prolly not count them.
uT | Greaterix: what we pay is for the development + improvent of the product/services offered by the company. If, for whatever reason, they feel it isn 't economically sound to continue with the project, they can close it down - however they cannot charge for the month in which the game closes - if people have paid further than the month it clsoes that will have to be refunded
danzar: i think we are overlooking this
danzar: its there
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: see if any of you really think you own you character you don't if they decided to wipe the servers or even shut down they could simply hand a refund of what ever time you had left and you can't say any tjhing about it. its happnes in asian grinders and some text based games all the time
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Exactly great
KoF ßmkħ: agreed with greaterix
]SoV[ Ferris: Blizzard is a for-profit organization. If they wanted to, they could sure as hell close the servers and laugh all the way to the bank. Doesn't mean they should
KoF ßmkħ: lol yeah
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah.
Khisanth: Think of all the angry mobs...
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: what i said before.
[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUESTION*****
Joe: What about the strength of the EULA? Ben, as an attorney, where does the law side on the legality of EULAs in a situation like this, where a player claims ownership of what his character has?
Aro: ture
Ninja Panda: It is their servers, their company, what they want to do with their game, people cannot stop them...
Trentish: legally, you're right, but can't we agree that they should, at the very least, give the players a significant notice that they're planning on shutting it down?
[ZiiP]Lazzars: they would upset a lot of people and have a poor reputation if they start flaunting they rights
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: You pay to play and agree to their terms. It's like going to a net cafe and paying to use their comps, but then complaining if they decide to turn them off. It's their choice as they're offering a service not actual goods.
[ZiiP]Lazzars: they can take your stuff but they don't
KoF ßmkħ: the law should be on the developers side, gaming is a service, not a right
Ninja Panda: A player doesn't own their character. It isn't really theirs. It can be taken away in a heartbeat.
]SoV[ Ferris: The EULA is absolute. It should describe SPECIFICALLY what the ownership laws are in the game, so there is no room for arguement by the player.
The Chosen One: For my part the EULA can allow the gamedesigners to crusify all goldfarmers.
Trentish: Sylviana: but you already are aware that they have to shut them down sometime
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: You pay to play and when you first buy the game and after patches it gives you the EULA terms of service and license agreement.
Trentish: it's just good business to tell the players you're going to be ending your service
Blatant: Also rember they make tons of money yes, but most goes to there ISP for the huge servers up 24/7 and also a lot goes to Vivendi..There profits went up 150% when wow first came out
Aro: if the EULA says anything you create buy or do is the companies you playing their charactor, if you follow the EULA thar will lett you use it, if you break it bye bye.
Ninja Panda: The EULA is a blood contract, but you can get away with some stuff
danzar: agree
danzar: its there rules
=Uber= AdamX: Yeh but, who READS the EULA?
CaLiLaTiN: wow
melari: some people do
Aro: no one
[ZiiP]Lazzars: you should
KoF ßmkħ: lol @ adam
=Uber= AdamX: Honestly.. who reads it?
Цnzinc: I was just about to ask that
danzar: non of us really
Ninja Panda: No one haha...
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: if you chech the box its as good as a signatue
The Chosen One: Very globaly a few times.
Aro: I read a couple mmos motly
]SoV[ Ferris: The EULA should SPECIFICALLY state ownership, otherwise players actually have a defense against RMT activitie.
Цnzinc: How many gamers read every EULA they encounter?
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: That is true Trent. But by playing WoW you are aware they are in control of their service and could shut it down at anypoint too.
]SoV[ Ferris: I read it, personally.
[ZiiP]Lazzars: its like signing a document you havn't read
|WND|mastermc0: They own the game, they right the EULA you agree to in order to play and they have the right to change the EULA as and when they please... to be honest it doesn't matter if your read the EULA or not you still agreed to it
lordscrewball: never
[ZiiP]Lazzars: admittedly i usually don't
Khisanth: You shouldn't agree to something without reading it, it's a legally binding contract
Ninja Panda: I usually don't. Sometimes I do, but hardly ever haha....
Цnzinc: I skim through some of the important parts, but I never actually read the entire document
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: Do you guys buy items from gold farmers? Or do you buy from players who are actually selling items at market price?
uT | Greaterix: It says in the ToS + the EULA that the developer's hold the right to close the game anytime they feel it is necessary/ However, doing that normally spells the death of a company, so they would not do it without a full explanation to the paying users. Normally,although they aren't bound to do it, they may provide a "last token of gratitude" by giving remainder of time free until closure.
The Chosen One: I don't read it but with some common sence you know what to do and not to.
danzar: But we all know the basic of the rules
danzar: to the all
]SoV[ Ferris: Why would I agree to a contract and not read it?
Aro: you have the option to read it though
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: You pay to play and when you first buy the game and after patches it gives you the EULA terms of service and license agreement.
The Chosen One: Only for real specific things you should read it.
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: I must admit when I first Played I didnt read it but after a mishap with one of my guild members I do read it.
Aro: it's not the same as not seeing the document
Ninja Panda: Just scroll to the bottom and play...
uT | Greaterix: I always skim through the EULA + ToA whenever there is a big patch / server maintenance
Trentish: I agree, Syl. But an awful lot of people would be mad if Blizzard shut WoW down without notice; and I think they have every right to be angry
[TTHS]Prophet: As much as I'd love to stay I have an arena session to attend to >
Khisanth: Generally even if you work for someone, they get ownership of your ideas
ŃęЯÐ^LN: If Blizzard shuts down the game for some reason, I mean completely, and you have just renewed your account, but Blizzard is bankrupt, what would you do to get your money back?
Aro: If the company says it's your , it's yours
KoF ßmkħ: blizzard is enabling the crafter to make his stuff, so it's blizzards
The Chosen One: I'm Dutch, my English is fairly well but could someone elabreate the question for me?
TAW_Nocturn [AA 4]: but EVERYTHING in the WoW universe is owned by blizzard, so items are players property in the game, but the code used to make them, that is blizzards.
Aro: if they say it theirs, it's theirs
]SoV[ Ferris: No. The game designer made both the ingredients and the said crafted item. If I mine a vein in WoW, and Blizzard owns the vein, why wouldn't they own the items found inside?
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Oh ofcourse. There would be alot of angry gamers, unfortunately because Blizzard own the game and it's their service. They can, by all means, do as they please.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: It's the matter of who owns it but if you made a program with ones program it is your program not theres even if it was with their technolagy
Motile Target: The free market should regulate Blizzard being "mean"
melari: i have to say i don't understand the question either
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Saying
Aro: IN SL what you create is yours, you own it, you can do what you want with it
|WND|mastermc0: its the companies property in my opinion they created the item you made in the game so its their property whereas you created the post on whatever website yourself thus making it your property despite using someone elses tech to share it
KoF ßmkħ: good point mitch
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: say you were to make an item under blizzards item maker
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: is it yours or theres?
Цnzinc: but without the player, there would be no item
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yes exactly.
uT | Greaterix: There is no such thing as the player "creating" an item in a game. The develoepr's have made a myriad of blueprints available to the players, who can choose what yo craft if they ahve the required mats. Thus, it still belongs to the devs
danzar: I think that the companys that you service you with server shoul;d have liablty to certain things
Trentish: I think some of us are arguing from a philosophical standpoint and others are arguing from a legal one
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: when you emerse your slf into a mmo then ur in a "different world" and mods and admins are the "god" they created it and its theirs
Ninja Panda: Either way it is a great combo hah..
[ZiiP]Lazzars: its their property as your designing something for them without charge
The Chosen One: As most people/gold farming do aswell.
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: if you created a item in a game you were allowed to same as making a coment on digg
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: he used that as an example all i am doing is merely repeting it.
]SoV[ Ferris: It's all about legality, when it all comes down to it
Aro: If you use someones ingreients tools and cookbook to make a cake, whos cake is it?
The Chosen One: Its my game/my money etc.
=Uber= AdamX: Well in the end, it all comes down to the EULA.. but nobody reads it
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yours
[ZiiP]Lazzars: true adam
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Considering you made it. The people from the cook book cant say you made that cake with our cook book so it's ours.
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: It's all about what you agreed to when you decided to join the game.
]SoV[ Ferris: I read what subjects apply to myself
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: but there are differences the coment is of free thought the item is the drive to become better in a game
The Chosen One: True but you sign that you HAVE read it. Most don't but still they can fall back on that and they should be able too.
[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUESTION*****
Joe: So if a commenter on your blog were to try to sell a comment he wrote in regard to something you posted, do you think he has the right to sell that comment elsewhere?
Trentish: While I think company's should legally be able to shut a game down whenever they want, I do think it's just good business and good from a moral standpoint to warn the players ahead of time
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Because the produce those for others to use.
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: Well lets take it from this point. say you made something online and someone started selling it on ebay etc even though you crated it and had all the rights to it. where would that leave you in the eyes of the law
Ninja Panda: Period. The game owns what ever you do in their game. You create a sword, it isn't yours. You create a new character, it isn't yours. You farm 3,000g it isn't yours.
KoF ßmkħ: but you cant "end" ingredients for a cake
danzar: If blizzard decided to shut down WOW they should have responiable to X amount of users
Aro: Yeah but isn't the cake just a differen t form of the base ingredients
:[SB]::DarkMan: It would be really bad to just shut down a game without warning
]SoV[ Ferris: @Mitch: But you owned the ingredients.
[ZiiP]Lazzars: if you took instructions to write the whole game of wow then it would be your item but using a prog to design the item makes it theirs
]SoV[ Ferris: In real life
KoF ßmkħ: yes, i think he does, its his intellectual right
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah it is.
Motile Target: but the cake can exsist without the cookbook
danzar: Well its all the wording then isnt it?
Khisanth: You don't have a TOS agreement when you buy cake ingredients
The Chosen One: If I say I like cookies on a site can I still say it somewhere else? -.-
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: a bea idea that you created is different from somthing that you made in a ditigtal world
Trentish: Darkman: I agree (not that it would be illegal to do so, though)
danzar: because someone some place has said the same thing at some point?
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: Funny how it went from Wow to cake really
Aro: I'm not refring companies to people, people to people
]SoV[ Ferris: Yes, he has the right to sell a comment someone made on your blog, because the person made the comment, and it's their opinion.
Aro: like your borrowed your friends
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: if he can sell his ideas yes because that is all of his creation, but I don't know what digg sauys about using its site as a place to sell ideas to others
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Exactly, But it does say you cant copy any thing in the cook book and claim it as your own meaning the text .
[ZiiP]Lazzars: its an iteresting analogy admittedly
uT | Greaterix: a comment posted on a blog belongs to the poster - who gives it to the blog-site to host for others to see. If they then want to spread their views to other sources there is nothing bad about that
]SoV[ Ferris: As to whether someone buys it is another thing.
Ninja Panda: Why are we trying to compare a game to cake?
[ZiiP]Lazzars: analogy
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Idk i like cake.
The Chosen One: Both are good but to much hurts?
KoF ßmkħ: lol
Aro: I'm eating cake atm
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: anolgy
[ZiiP]Lazzars: staple of debate
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Nice lol.
Trentish: pie > cake, discuss
:[SB]::DarkMan: Well, world of cooking is not the world of software
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: its to make people who dont understand...understand
:[SB]::DarkMan: or baking or whatever
Aro: True cake is tangible
[ZiiP]Lazzars: or world of warcraf
Blatant: Property designates those things commonly recognized as the entities in respect of which a person or group has exclusive rights. Important types of property include real property (land), personal property (other physical possessions), and intellectual property (rights over artistic creations, inventions, etc.).
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yes true there for it can only be compared to an extent.
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: He could sell his comment because it was his and he made no contractual agreement to the blogger when posting the message. However he couldn't sell it if it was against the TOS he agreed to when joining the site before making the comment
]SoV[ Ferris: Like on 4chan, an image board, any posted images are the poster's property and responsibility. If it is against international law, they are the ones who are charged, not the servers.
KoF ßmkħ: agreed
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: agreed blantent
[ZiiP]Lazzars: but the 4chan tos states this
]SoV[ Ferris: It becomes their property once they post it.
|WND|mastermc0: if someone creates something that is using their own ideas e.g creating a design for a wallpaper it is their intelectual property
The Chosen One: .
Ninja Panda: Agreed..
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: hey could sell his comment but mabie could not include the idea of the orrignal post?
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Most people dont read the ToS or EULA agreement. I didnt i admit it but i did eventualy.
KoF ßmkħ: agreed with ferris
The Chosen One: Well can I make a TOS/EULA for a site saying everyone who visited must pay me $5?
Blatant: A right of ownership is associated with property that establishes the good as being "one's own thing" in relation to other individuals or groups, assuring the owner the right to dispense with the property in a manner he or she sees fit, whether to use or not use, exclude others from using, or to transfer ownership. Some philosophers assert that property rights arise from social convention. Others find origins for them in morality or natural law.
|WND|mastermc0: where if you make a sword on WoW you used someone elses design its therefore not your property
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: yes you can.
]SoV[ Ferris: Yes you could Chosen One, and it's their fault for not reading.
Aro: Yoiu can if your hosting lets you
:[SB]::DarkMan: The Chosen One, that sounds like subscription
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: If a game moderator is playing does he own the item?
The Chosen One: Exactly
]SoV[ Ferris: You could sue them.
]SoV[ Ferris: But
]SoV[ Ferris: There's a problem
danzar: Just because you say its yours does mean that.. until you declair it TM its not yours
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Depending on your webhost.
]SoV[ Ferris: They'd have to sign up via. a CC or an E-check account.
Motile Target: but you don't vreate naything in WoW, the devolopers did, and you are just replicating it
Ninja Panda: Well....
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yes theres a bunch of legalness that gets involved.
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Yeah Chosen. As long as you made a TOS stating that lawfully. Then they would have to pay you as they should have read the contract they were agreeing to.
The Chosen One: True but then something else not involving money basicly you could !@#$ people.
]SoV[ Ferris: Otherwise it's a scam which is illegal by national standards, depending where you life.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yes you could.
]SoV[ Ferris: live evem.
]SoV[ Ferris: even*
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: The problem there the chossen one is if a TOS isnt goverened by the ELOC (or what ever they are called) its only a guidleline not a law
Aro: they would be a good way to make money btw
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: But it states to read it clearly before continueing.
[virtuallyblind.com] Ben: Somebody made an advertisement for their gold farm with dead dwarves. That's arguably their creation.
danzar: but not TM
Aro: Depends in what game
danzar: you can and paste it
The Chosen One: Thats the main problem for dame designers/company's. TOS isn't the law. And it should.
The Chosen One: be*
danzar: until its legaly TM its anyone's
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Have you ever read them though?
[ZiiP]Lazzars: the tos and eula lets the user know what the devs are entitled to do with their own itellectual property by law
:[SB]::DarkMan: TOS? yap
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: TOS IS the law if they have gone to the ELOC and got it sanctioned
danzar: or you accespt to a legel teder
Aro: is anyone paying attention to main floor?
danzar: ture
danzar: true
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: http://worldofwarcraft.com/legal/
]SoV[ Ferris: I am somewhat, Aro
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: which all game companys must do
Khisanth: not really, too caught up in here lol
]SoV[ Ferris: But more to here
uT | Greaterix: Developer's can't forcabley make you obey what is written - they can take their service away from you after, however they cannot force u to follow the guidelines
Khisanth: this is too interesting
Blatant: Terms of Service (often abbreviated as "ToS") are rules by which one must agree to abide by in order to use a service. Usually, such terms are legally binding.
]SoV[ Ferris: Agreed, Greaterix
danzar: yea if you have the legal tender to that document then its all legal and owned by the creator
KoF ßmkħ: agreed with greaterix
The Chosen One: They should post the user info on the web of goldfarmers and then we could hunt em down and play "how long can you beat a goldfarmer till he losing consiounce".
Trentish: What do you guys think about the machinma subject they're talking about?
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: It's like agreeing to a monthly contract on a phone or something. You sign it saying you agree to their terms and if you fail to uphold that they have the right to stop it at any time.
Aro: true humans can do what they want, not that they should
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Taken directly from worldofwarcraft.com :YOU SHOULD CAREFULLY READ THE FOLLOWING WORLD OF WARCRAFT TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT (THE "TERMS OF USE" OR "AGREEMENT"). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK "REJECT." IF YOU REJECT THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER FIRST PURCHASING THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT SOFTWARE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. ONCE YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS OF USE AND THE END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (EULA), YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ELIGIBLE FOR A REFUND.
danzar: or its under a TM tender
Ninja Panda: The ToS/EULA are restrictions/guidelines/rules that the user has to acknownledge when he first plays the game. If you break any of the rules you will recieve a punishment of somesorts, whether big or small...
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: stay away from the hudge fonts
Motile Target: you created machinime with thier product. You'd have to split the money if you sold it
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Wasnt mine XD.
Aro: blame wow
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: But i will.
Aro: it's their VP
:[SB]::DarkMan: You can just link those things
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: TOS is what they decide and TOSs change so if you break one of these rules that they set out even if it changes and you did not see the change. bye bye. also your ingame rights are stated. if they reallyt wanted to they could say no trading with nother person at all but still give you the option.
Trentish: If someone creates a machinma, should they be able to show it wherever they want? Or possibly even sell it?
[ZiiP]Lazzars: make the window bigger then
[ZiiP]Lazzars: not without the permission of the devs
Trentish: Motile Target: Getting their permission first?
Motile Target: yes
The Chosen One: Another legal thing quickly on the side. Most shops don't allow gamerefunds (cause of copying) but its in the TOS of the game that they MUST refund you if you disagree to the TOS for w/e reason.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Permission.
Trentish: I would agree
uT | Greaterix: I would argue with that if you purchase the product (WoW) however don't open/install it for say 45 days, and see that, they would still have to refund.
Motile Target: getting thier persmission, but you used thier producct to make the film
The Chosen One: Could you sue them anyway?
:[SB]::DarkMan: Trentish, it probably depends on the TOS
Aro: is it chosen?
[virtuallyblind.com] Ben: They can't, if they signed a TOS/EULA that says not. There's a good philosophical argument otherwise, but that's the deal you make with most of these companies.
Trentish: Though, I think it's a good idea for developers to be very open about machinma
Blatant: In one MMO (i forget) they dident like people making moives and selling cpoies of them so the banned the use of it
The Chosen One: The retailer has to refund bla bla etc.
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: They dont let me return games at best buy
:[SB]::DarkMan: It is a good idea - free advertising
Motile Target: I do think devolopers SHOULD be opoen about machinima and art
Trentish: it's like mods in other games, it furthers their product
The Chosen One: Exactly. But they should since its in the TOS
Aro: the company would be stupid to ban machima
Motile Target: but they shouldn't legally have to be
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: If you showed them a computer games ToS they would have to.
The Chosen One: if you disagree to the TOs.
danzar: Here is a debate for this.. what if you dont agree to the TOS do you get a refund for the product?
Aro: it creates publicity
Aro: yes
[ZiiP]Lazzars: yes
Trentish: Aro: definitely agree
Aro: assumiong you don't copy
[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUESTION*****
Joe: Can we really defer to the EULA anymore? Recent court cases, in addition to some old shrink-wrap license rulings, seem to side with the user on the "by doing something you agree to something." So, assuming WoW's EULA is invalid, does your opinion on ownership change?
uT | Greaterix: many computer games cannot be reutned these days as they have the unique keys within them - unless they still have the wrapper on, shops can refuse to take them back.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yes.
The Chosen One: you should, but you wouln't prob
danzar: the TOS should be on the box
Ninja Panda: Aro, I agree with you there.
:[SB]::DarkMan: SDaria, I think this is the wrong section
Trentish: dan: you should have to agree to the TOS before paying
:[SB]::DarkMan: Question Room is for that
danzar: agree
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah you should have to.
danzar: true sorry
]SoV[ Ferris: No, my opinion on ownership stands firm. It's my belief is someone creates something ANYWHERE, it is theirs.
Aro: if wows eula is invalid it would break down the princibles of the game
Motile Target: but yes, if you don't agree to the eula, you should get a 100% refund
[ZiiP]Lazzars: courts often don't understand the circumstances imo and just side with the user as the term property is thrown around a lot
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yes you do from the owner.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Not from the store you purchesed it from.
Aro: anything you made is yours you can csue blizzard for not being able to alter at your will the stats of something
Aro: ELUUA have to be observed or choas will errupt
KoF ßmkħ: but then people will sue blizzard to get level 70
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: if games allowed people to by off line money I still have the same veiws because I like earning what I have in a game and buying money takes away from the experience.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Well lets say in a film maker in the ToS it says you cannot sell films and call them yours
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: when you create somthing somthing it is made server side....you dont even really own it on you harddrive
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: I believe still that if the owner offers you a service then it is still theirs no matter what you create under that service. However if the owner gives you the full rights to whatever you create under that service then that aformentioned creation is completely yours.
KoF ßmkħ: agreed
]SoV[ Ferris: No one should be able to sue the maker of the EULA or the ToS of a specific game.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: but you do not read it what happens?
]SoV[ Ferris: Because it's not the makers' fault that you failed to read a contract
The Chosen One: Its strange in some games though.... I get laughed at for saying I DON'T HACK/farm.
Aro: then another company would make a programthat lets you
uT | Greaterix: @aro - what you made was a copy of a pre-set item. Thus, you have no control over stats etc
Blatant: Ownership is the state or fact of exclusive rights and control over property, which may be an object, land/real estate, intellectual property or some other kind of property. It is embodied in an ownership right also referred to as title.
Aro: it's stupid to make TOS's no one will sign
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yes it's all really about reading the ToS EULA
]SoV[ Ferris: Exactly Greaterix, everything is pre-set, you have no control over stats
]SoV[ Ferris: Even sockets are controlled in WoW.
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: Are item dupes actually items?
]SoV[ Ferris: Yes and no.
Motile Target: well how could someone own something that is controlled by another bigger force? should the govenrment regulate that?
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: i thought they were imaginary
Aro: it'sd n exploit and that violates the EULA
]SoV[ Ferris: They once were, but are not officially an item in my eyes, since it's just a carbon copy.
The Chosen One: Well. Is a copy still an original?
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Right aro.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: No it's not.
Blatant: its an exploit
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: It's a copy of that product .
Aro: They thwn have the right to delete it
]SoV[ Ferris: It was copied under illegal standards. Copying a book on the internet and selling it is also illegal, so why shouldn't a virtual item?
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Plagerism
Motile Target: good point
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Exactly.
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: like prating music
Aro: indeed
danzar: Well if i bought a car i own that car not ever copy of that car...
:[SB]::DarkMan: Yap
The Chosen One: There are plenty of people who think its ok to abuse glitches since ITS THE DEVELOPERS FAULT for making faults in the game.
[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUESTION*****
Joe: Ok, shifting gears here. What about resellers? Aside from the legal side, is the service they provide (buying gold from players in order to sell it to others) detrimental to players' experience? A gentleman by the name of Antonio Hernandez is suing IGE. Hernandez' attorney, Richard Newsome, has said, "It's kind of like, if someone pays for a ticket to go see a movie, and if someone else comes in behind them and kicks their seat, you can get them to stop doing that. We're just trying to get IGE to stop kicking the seats." Are resellers and farmers "kicking the seats"? Can you ban kicking seats? Can you make it illegal?
Trentish: Duped items, I think, should really be a case by case basis. If a player was to buy a duped item from the Auction House, he should at the very least get a refund
:[SB]::DarkMan: SDAria, post in Question Room
Trentish: the item shouldn't just be deleted
:[SB]::DarkMan: I never abuse glitches... I play games with tons of em (like Oblivion), but I think it's just wrong
Blatant: In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers.
What is or is not considered an exploit varies between games and developers. The EULA (End-User License Agreement) typically states what type of gameplay is not acceptable. Thus, some developers may consider AFK gameplay to be an exploit, while others may not.
The Chosen One: They should all burn in hell :). *offense intended*
Motile Target: free market should decide if the retailer wants to issue a refund
Aro: yes, it is it messing up the gameplay and econemy
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: duped items cant really be discussed as there isnt a proved cause of duped items yet (in wow anyway)
The Chosen One: Sorry if its harse but I'm 200% anti gold/hacker etc.
]SoV[ Ferris: You can make it illegal, but that doesn't mean it can be enforced. The mafia is illegal, but it still runs, because there is no way you can fully make it from not happening, because there will always be more people showing up to do the activity than are caught.
melari: still as long as people buy from them they will excist
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: you bought the ticket to play the game and you are buying food that is out of the theater and bringing it when its against the rules.
Aro: it causes inflation, so it's harder to buy good items ect
danzar: I so you ban people for playing a gmae the way they want to.. as long as its not agrisnt the rules!
lordscrewball: same in rl if you buy a car that been stolen chances you wont get money back
danzar: you cant
melari: oh believe me i loath them, why can't people try to get their own money
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Exactly Lord
KoF ßmkħ: games arent fun when you can gold farm and sell to get things easier
[ZiiP]Lazzars: like i said earlier, if there are rules against something but they arn't enforced then they are hardly rules
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: you should know from the moment u buy that ticket that that kid is gunna kick your seat
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah.
]SoV[ Ferris: lol Killer, but agreed
Aro: and players can buy a maxed out toon join a raiing guild and get everyone killed because he has no idea what he/she is doing
Motile Target: right
The Chosen One: There is always a thing called honour.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Always ends up happening.
lordscrewball: i do farm my opwn money soem times take to long dont all ways get them nice drops you need
The Chosen One: I live by it.
The Chosen One: Mostly.
Motile Target: the free market should decide the manufactureres views on refunds
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Hah and what percent of population have that?
The Chosen One: At least for gaming I do :).
KoF ßmkħ: agreed chosen one, but many dont
]SoV[ Ferris: When it all boils down to it is you take a risk to everything, even in online game. If you do wrongdoing, big deal, you did it on your own time, you pay for it
The Chosen One: I hit someone agreeing to hack online :). *dam proud of it*
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: *claps*
KoF ßmkħ: lol
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: lol @ chosen
Aro: you should get a medel
Trentish: **Question: How would you feel about having to pay a deposit (maybe $50 or so) to the company in order to pay. If you were found cheating, hacking or gold selling, you wouldn't be able to get your deposit back. If you did none of these things, you could cancel your account and get it back. (totally hypothetical)
]SoV[ Ferris: I hit them too! lol
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: ... dont push it
Trentish: play*
eNx.: ^^
The Chosen One: Fine by me.
Motile Target: interesting
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Fine.
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: That would be acceptable
Khisanth: Maybe... if it would actually work out that way, sure
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: ^^
Motile Target: is it teh devolooper that's losing money when ppl cheat though?
The Chosen One: Forward that to Blizzard and others please :).
|WND|mastermc0: if i signed an EULA or contract sure
melari: i would agree, but what if you are hacked and they cancel your account because the hacker did something not you?
]SoV[ Ferris: We've hit the 45 minute mark, woo
Khisanth: But they'd really have to stand behind that one
Aro: If you are judged fairly and justly if you break TOS(accidentaly or purposely)
:[SB]::DarkMan: I have a few friends that were banned and wasn't their fault
Trentish: I think it would be a very tricky system, but it might have some merit
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah.
Trentish: Darkman: yeah, that's what I would worry about
lordscrewball: that up tp you to prove you was hacked
The Chosen One: 1. Blizzards makes $100 deposit*
2. Blizzards gets in trouble.
3. Blizzards closes down 9 mil WoW accounts
The Chosen One: Blizzard win.
]SoV[ Ferris: They get a lot of money.,
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: yeah
:[SB]::DarkMan: A bad example is Steam - a friend of mine got his Steam hacked
Trentish: Also, it would turn of some people to the game, that's a lot of money up front
]SoV[ Ferris: And it's not illegal either, I don't think
:[SB]::DarkMan: He posted to get his account back, no reply
]SoV[ Ferris: It's like stocks, if it's not an LLC, nothing happens to them
The Chosen One: Well thats what people say about a p2p game aswell.
:[SB]::DarkMan: No reply in MONTHS
Motile Target: for the whole hacking thing, you're still responsible, like your credit card
KoF ßmkħ: steam is vulnerable to hackers, they have your credit card and all those expensive games
Aro: It's legal if you lose dorms keys ect in collage you gotta pay for more than what they're worth
The Chosen One: compared to a free game.
eNx.: you can buy css from a shop if im not mistaken :)
:[SB]::DarkMan: Exacly, I don't understand why some like Steam so much... Valve should put some more work into security
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah you can.
:[SB]::DarkMan: CSS yes, but there are lots of indie games that you can't
KoF ßmkħ: agreed dark man
eNx.: like garrysmod :(
danzar: Someone tell me the diffence in someone coming ot my house and mowing my grass for X amount as to someone farming gold to sell to me?
:[SB]::DarkMan: yap, I got gMod 10 (lucky me)
The Chosen One: affeting others?
The Chosen One: Lazy?
KoF ßmkħ: mowing the lawn isnt against the law
:[SB]::DarkMan: I only use Steam for games that I'm forced to
eNx.: back to topic ^^
danzar: lazy?
Aro: well you own the grass
[ZiiP]Lazzars: so do games bought direct to drive, without any DVD for them constiture virtual property then?
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: people buy battlefield 2 accounts also
The Chosen One: Moral, community, tos?
Aro: buying bf2 accounts is stupid
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: not just mmos
The Chosen One: People sell lvl 10 accounts in wow for $50...
:[SB]::DarkMan: danzar: farming gold is against the TOS.
Aro: people can weasly tell if you bought one
eNx.: but isnt that an agreement between 2 players?
danzar: out sid eof the TOS
eNx.: i mean, if both consent to it..?
danzar: outside
:[SB]::DarkMan: look, guys
The Chosen One: This is nice. I love all of you. *hug*
danzar: hehe
:[SB]::DarkMan: if I'm player 1, and (for example) danzar is player 2
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: ./hug @ chosen
eNx.: then should second hand cars be made illegal, because they're not directly from the retailers?
:[SB]::DarkMan: and we have an agreement to hack into a bank and steal the money
uT | Greaterix: farming gold may be against the TOT - but what about farming items to sell for gold (e.g. mining ores to sell at an auction house for hiigher prices than vendors)
uT | Greaterix: ToS*
:[SB]::DarkMan: that doesn't make it legal, even if it's "between 2 guys"
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Exactly.
:[SB]::DarkMan: Or if we agree to hack a game together - we have a player-to-player agreement
:[SB]::DarkMan: But do you think that, say, Blizzard would like that?
:[SB]::DarkMan: I know I wouldn't.
Blatant: I think farming the gold then selling it to players should be illigeal which i think it is since i can say i farm gold..i just get lots of gold but if i start selling that gold then it becomes bad
eNx.: whats the similarity between hacking and trading in game?
The Chosen One: Illegal.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: ^
eNx.: ^^
Aro: They arn't similar
:[SB]::DarkMan: Farming is OK as long as it isn't using macros - as long as YOU're there controlling the character with YOUR fingers
Blatant: hacking is going into code and getting around the game trading like items is just user based
:[SB]::DarkMan: HOWEVER, selling gold is NEVER ok!
Trentish: agree Darkman
]SoV[ Ferris: Agreed.
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: i agree
danzar: yes it is
[ZiiP]Lazzars: as long as you have the free time then fine
lordscrewball: dont seem harm in buying bf2 account you cant take the game back when you get sick of playing
ŃęЯÐ^LN: loSelling gold is okay
KoF ßmkħ: agreed darkman
:[SB]::DarkMan: I hate all those "gold sale" and "ISK sale" everywhere... I report them ASAP
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: its a cheat and destroys an experiece that i paid for
ŃęЯÐ^LN: You should be able to use your own money to make money
ŃęЯÐ^LN: It's investing
danzar: YES
Aro: yes but marcos arn't illegal, they're game scripts correct?
ŃęЯÐ^LN: Correct
eNx.: i don't see why not..as long as you're not using cheats to get the code
:[SB]::DarkMan: Aro: depends on the game
eNx.: coz that becomes hacking then
[ZiiP]Lazzars: just scripts to save you the work
danzar: no
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: see farmiong cause inflation weather it be items or gold. it make the experience for a new player who wants to earn what they want harder. it was like that for me when I started playing EQ1 again on a new account
:[SB]::DarkMan: WoW has macros as game scripts, while in Eve, one can mine a whole asteroid belt with those
eNx.: same with runescape ^^
danzar: Farming is no more hacking then you sell a axe on a action board
:[SB]::DarkMan: so in Eve, macros = bots
danzar: auction
uT | Greaterix: when you ar ein control there is nothing illegal about it. You could go farm 100gold, and then say to ur friend "i've got this amount of gold, il give u XX amount for £XX" and there would be nothing wrong with that - You have put the effort into getting the stuff, and then sell it to someone else. EVerything is worth what some1 is willing to pay for it.
lordscrewball: depends on server soem items are getting cheaper to buy now for me that good
:[SB]::DarkMan: Farming is not hacking, as long as you don't use a bot
Blatant: exploiting like duping is using glitches not intended by the Devs hacking is using things like bots were a program or code gets around the main program
The Chosen One: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! QUESTION FOR EVERYONE HERE . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are people selling not accounts on i-net but THE TIME USED TO MAKE THE ACCOUNT.
How about that?
]SoV[ Ferris: In FFXI, they have conbatted RMT usingf macros. YOu can no longer "macro" to mine anything.
danzar: agree dark
[virtuallyblind.com] Ben: I agree with that. If you're macroing against the TOS, using exploits, etc. then that messes up the economy. If you're just a joker willing to sit there for a long, long time. Hey, have at it. And sell me your time.
eNx.: hmm
]SoV[ Ferris: combatted*
Trentish: it's a loophole and is just as bad
Aro: well if you can mass produce items via ingame factories (like SWG) will that help inflation?
The Chosen One: Its so stupid. Not even a loophole. You can't sell time...
eNx.: technically u could give the guy minimum wage for the number of hours ^^
]SoV[ Ferris: This time, over here, is mine. Would you like to buy it?
Цnzinc: Its the same thing. a level 60 of time is worth the same as a level 60
:[SB]::DarkMan: Unless you charge per hour
Aro: then you can afford to price lower
The Chosen One: Every laywer or judge would eat that person alive...
danzar: SELL ME YOUR TIME.. thats a good quote there
eNx.: lol
Aro: time is money
eNx.: ^^
uT | Greaterix: you can sell anything as long as you find some1 willing to pay for it.
danzar: agree 100%
lordscrewball: most of the gold farmers play the game normal just like every one else . only dif is that char is on 24/7 being played by dif people
The Chosen One: but is money time :P
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: and money is time.
Aro: but money isn't time
eNx.: greed
Trentish: what about paying your little brother to farm money for you?
]SoV[ Ferris: Time is money, but not vice versa.
danzar: i pay for soemones time!!
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Pretty much Great.
]SoV[ Ferris: The equals sign goes one way.
The Chosen One: most of the real gold farmer only farm and farm and farm.
Aro: great idea
Aro: lol
The Chosen One: thats 90% maybe
:[SB]::DarkMan: time is money. Gold is money. Gold is time. So stop farming and spend your TIME into getting GOLD by actually BEING THERE
eNx.: what i dont agree about gold farming is the sweatshops.
danzar: NO what if i cant
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Most of gold sellers and farmers live somewhere in china.
eNx.: exactly
Blatant: yup
danzar: because of work, etcc
Aro: anything that takes time to get/make has real world worth
The Chosen One: 0.4% of all china gamers farm gold.
KoF ßmkħ: so us law doesnt apply
eNx.: lol
:[SB]::DarkMan: cross out US
[ZiiP]Lazzars: thats still like a million =D
]SoV[ Ferris: If you don't have time to get money in an online game, then don't play the game full time.
:[SB]::DarkMan: more like law doesn't apply
The Chosen One: wwhich is about 100k
Цnzinc: i think every MMO player has farmed gold
]SoV[ Ferris: Play a different game.
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: yeah what happens when an american game is being destroyed by another countries players?
Aro: 0.4 percent 1.2 mil ? :O
The Chosen One: farming gold for YOURSELF is fine
Aro: invade
danzar: ?? what??
The Chosen One: 0.4 % of gamers in china
]SoV[ Ferris: Yes, Chosen one.
Aro: lol
eNx.: is wow american??
:[SB]::DarkMan: fine if you're not botting
Цnzinc: Oh, you meant to sell?
danzar: who care who does it
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: i dont know
danzar: dont be rasist
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: no wNx its french
eNx.: ^^
:[SB]::DarkMan: but if you meant "manually", then I agree, Chosen One
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: considering theres different versions of wow.
eNx.: french?
The Chosen One: ofc.
KoF ßmkħ: wow originated in america but other countries play
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: It's unbelievable that we live in a world where not only are we too lazy to socalise irl anymore, but too lazy to even earn our own ingame items. Everyone wants people to do the work for them.
]SoV[ Ferris: But Blizzard itself is based in the US.
danzar: LOL
]SoV[ Ferris: Doesn't matter though
Blatant: vivendi games is french
eNx.: ^^,
eNx.: oic
Trentish: agreed Syl
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: see I see no bad things on giving a low character enough cash for a few levels till they are powerfull enought to go out on their own and make cash]
[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUESTION*****
Joe: This one is from dakirakhartas: So far there has been a lot of discussion about the property rights for the player in the main room. Also in the open floor there has been discussion about the effects certain choices can have on game economies. What are your thoughts on how these economic changes affect the player and their community?
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Lol agreed
danzar: Yea windows is US also right??? lol
Aro: That's because we can pay beable to do it for us so we can do more things we want to do
eNx.: sdaria keeps breaking the argument :x
The Chosen One: There are people who laugh at me for saying I'd rather commit suicide then buy gold... Sometimes I think I am the only person with a moral consiounce.
The Chosen One: or hack etc.
:[SB]::DarkMan: yeah
[Xfire] SDaria: hehe. Sorry. It's my job to put in new questions
danzar: you buy godl everyday
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Dont say that you wouldnt kill youself.
eNx.: np ;)
danzar: with you time
lordscrewball: but game like blizzard make so have to spend every singal hr on the game no wonder people buy gold
The Chosen One: People beg for 1 gold or 1 mil gold for hours in some games aswell.
Aro: in 25-50 years it will be different because india and china will have a massively higher standard of living
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: pfft.
:[SB]::DarkMan: SDaria, you could make a new room just for new questions ;)
The Chosen One: Playing the game would get them more.
eNx.: let's hope so
]SoV[ Ferris: If the economy becomes so crippled that normal players who do not buy gold (Or gil, for FFXI purposes) cannot progress because they need to take a LOT of time to make up for that inflation, then it becomes ridiculous.
Aro: you will have to run around farming gold yourself because the chineese can have a better job
]SoV[ Ferris: Then that normal player quits, because he or she becomes tired of it, or does not have the time.
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: so american players who buy virtual french items? not only does it hurt the game economy it could do a small dent to the nation too.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Exactly.
eNx.: lol
danzar: The only really thing you own in this world is your time .. now what you trade for it is your choose !!!!!
Aro: ito who france or america
Aro: very true
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: either way one country is losing money
danzar: i choose to trade farming for 3 hours for soemthingi make in 10 minutes
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: for nothing
:[SB]::DarkMan: Speaking of real money for game money... I hate what Gunbound did
danzar: that simple
[Xfire] SDaria:
*****NEXT QUESTION*****
Joe: Here's one from [Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: I have heard that a recent online game in China requires players to read the TOS and they are randomly Tested on it. do you think a system like that would work for the european market?
:[SB]::DarkMan: It just seems unfair... Taking money for credits
]SoV[ Ferris: What, buying GP?
Aro: what did he say
The Chosen One: Any RPG in one way or the other means Spending time on it.
Blatant: Well Blizzard Parent Company is vivendi games (who is french based (i think) and Blizz is USA
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah ijji is stupid.
eNx.: with gunbound, so true
Aro: yeah
[ZiiP]Lazzars: there are some instances where farming may be the only way to get enough currency to progress or buying gold as you just don't have the time to progress without some item or whatever
]SoV[ Ferris: No, it would NEVER work in the Euro market, or the US market for that matter.
danzar: WOW i dont knwo abotu that test thing
eNx.: the items are crap anyway ^^
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: liniage 2 makes it if you want to stay up being normal you have to buy money
The Chosen One: I'd copy one and lay it besides me.
:[SB]::DarkMan: It's a fine game with crap economy
eNx.: ya
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah the items are stupid
Aro: all the blondes would fail
danzar: that would kick our butts
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: otherwise youi are going to be on the low end of the spectrum
uT | Greaterix: If there was a huge influx of gold bought into the exonomy, It would push the value of items through the roof whils lowering the value of the currency. You would see people not using the auction hous ebut trading items for items, completely forgetting about the gold as it would be so abundant. That is the only extreme change i can think of happening to an in game economy
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: considering most people play un item games.
Aro: it's not fair
]SoV[ Ferris: Europeans do not take their games as seriously as most Chinese do.
Aro: plus i dought many people would bother
Trentish: there would have to be some sort of reward for players who get the answer right
danzar: LOL
Aro: in ancient times didn't the chineese goverment take the possible employees take tests in cages?
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Most gold selling sites are run by some rihc person in europe and chinese working for them
eNx.: lol
Trentish: that's the only way I can see that it wouldn't be a terrible idea
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: a liscence agreement is like an essay length, i would probably fail the test.
Trentish: always going to catch more flies with honey
]SoV[ Ferris: Though it's off-topic, Koreans have an entire channel dedicated to watching people play a game online, and it does very very well. Now that's serious gameplay.
Blatant: Europe not as hardcore tell me who was the first 70 in the world? And from what country.
]SoV[ Ferris: Euros or Americans will never be that serious.
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: no it yould create a dastic decrease of intrist and would most likly creaty a shutdown
[Xfire] Artaxs: “Basic Spelling and Grammar Test” ?!? LOL! Most U.S. WoW Players couldn’t pass a basic grammar test to save their lives. L2spell kthxbai.
danzar: but what if someone could read the lauage or heck not even read.. isnt that agrist them??
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: probably amstertdam or sweeden
eNx.: let's be honest, who ever reads all the license agreements, EULA's, TOS's, of all the programs they install, from top to bottom?
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: The problem is everyone wants the best without the effort. I get complained at constantly because I'm not at the highest level yet. But I play at my own pace. Unfortunately that kind of preassure on others has forced them to get other people with more time to do it for them.
[ZiiP]Lazzars: what about that chinese guy who died after playing wow for too long in one stretch
eNx.: i don't.
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: i salute that guy
Trentish: can't say that I ever have
The Chosen One: You are in control.
Aro: I 've only read EQ2 and bf2142
Blatant: Also in China a guy died from playing Starcraft for like 3 days stright no break at all
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: * pressure
:[SB]::DarkMan: Syl, I agree with you... I usually level very slowly
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: i heard that blatnant
Aro: most EULAs are very suimilar
eNx.: exactly
danzar: agree
:[SB]::DarkMan: Aro, indeed
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: I get 70 in 2 weeks.
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: there have been people dieing playing games befor wow one guy starved to death playing EQ1
ŃęЯÐ^LN: Lies
KoF ßmkħ: agreed with syl
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Birans guide no lies.
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: id rather have sc on my obituary that wow i guess
Aro: In eq2 i was lvl 28 for 4 months because i was enjoying hanging around
ŃęЯÐ^LN: I can get to 70 in 6 days and 5 hours lol
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: brians*
Aro: I don't likew grinding to get to the good stuff
eNx.: i'd put this on par with drug overdoses tbh
:[SB]::DarkMan: Aro, yeah, same with me
ŃęЯÐ^LN: lol
[Xfire] SDaria:
*****NEXT QUESTION*****
Joe: One from |WND|mastermc0: If companies like Blizzard bought and sold gold at a set official rate would this control virtual moneys cost in real(non-digital) currency?
:[SB]::DarkMan: only in WoW
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Im not horde.
Asatas: yeah ^^
eNx.: >.
Aro: it might if you can check 3rd party companies in chech
[Xfire] Artaxs: Look, if you forget to EAT while playing a game, you have bigger problems than “game addiction”.
]SoV[ Ferris: No. It would not. It would be worse.
The Chosen One: With a lot of things where people are in control of their own actions.
danzar: but who controls the rate of worth?
Aro: also they are much ore credible
ŃęЯÐ^LN: lol
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Exactly Nerd. And because of that others want to be at the best fast because they don't want to be seen as a rubbish gamer or Noob.
:[SB]::DarkMan: Well, just a one-liner change of topic... I don't see it fair how everyone blames the murders on games and TV
eNx.: hmm, come to that, Blizzard selling gold sounds really crap
[ZiiP]Lazzars: having an official exchange rate would kind of encourage it, no?
Aro: that's fred and hilary
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: The government hates games for some reason tbh they are becoming a sport if anyone has been to an mlg or msvg event.
eNx.: yea, cpl and stuff
Aro: have but you could limit to certain servers
danzar: the suppiers and buyers are the ones that control the rate of worth how would blizzard do this?
dakirakhartas: they dont hate games
[Xfire] Artaxs: Dying IRL while playing a videogame is just a modern-day example of Darwinism at work.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: It'd be worse if blizzard sold the gold
Trentish: they don't hate games, they just need a scapegoat
dakirakhartas: Games are the new scapegoat for the media
:[SB]::DarkMan: Moyko, I agree
Blatant: Well dieing from a Vedio Game? At other jobs your life can be at risk everyday its saying you died watching the TV or a moive its entertainment.
]SoV[ Ferris: Because no matter the price, some people can only manage the monthly fee. If they bought and sold it, it would make the gold mroe easily obtained, and would inflate the economy even more, making the less-serious players extremely crippled.
Aro: like in eq2 you can buy and sell stuff on certain servers
eNx.: hmm that's true
dakirakhartas: first it was Radio, then film, then comic books, then TV, now? it's games
Blatant: All forms of entertainment
Blatant: lesiure
:[SB]::DarkMan: Games are indeed the new escape goat... I mean, I've played games all my life, and I've never (for example) beaten anyone up...
[Xfire] SDaria:
*****NEXT QUESTION*****
Joe: One from KoF ßmkħ: Is buying/selling gold wrong in all games or only ones that violate the ToS?
Khisanth: The monthly fee is already bad enough, when you already have a whole family on with separate accounts, it can get pretty hefty
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: And people are going to have to deal with that.
uT | Greaterix: The video games never kill you - if you die whilst playing it should be considered as suicide, as you neglected your essential needs
:[SB]::DarkMan: I can answer that question
eNx.: I think WoW's too big to be affected in this way though
:[SB]::DarkMan: it's wrong
danzar: i say its good for all game!!!
Trentish: personally, I think it's wrong in all games except for singleplayer games
=Uber= AdamX: What about Jack thompson
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: the thing would be that there would have to be a storage of how much gold goes in and out because if the game maker just contiualy makes gold the games economy would tun into monopoly money
Aro: well things can be wrong and legal at the samw time
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: It's bad in all games to some players but bad to the company if it's in the ToS.
]SoV[ Ferris: All games. Because it's an unfair advantage.
danzar: Let people play the game they want to
Trentish: or possibly "open" servers, where people are okay with it
eNx.: depends the weight of gold (how much it's used) in game actually
:[SB]::DarkMan: it's wrong - just look at Gunbound
Aro: it's always but but not always illegal
eNx.: depends on*
The Chosen One: Basiclly all games if not designed or set in place by the developers themselves Maplestory you can buy items ingame in a CASHSHOP made by them.
Khisanth: It unbalances the game too much.
Aro: bad *
eNx.: whoever's bought something off gunbound, speak up ^^
danzar: no its not unblaanceing
Aro: also in EQ2, the station exchange
:[SB]::DarkMan: Yeah... Letting some players earn the stuff is alot better
]SoV[ Ferris: Just because something isn't illegal, doesn't mean I should do it anyway.
:[SB]::DarkMan: *clears out his through*
[ZiiP]Lazzars: make it official and ingame implemented otherwise it will be exploited
danzar: it doe sthe opsite
:[SB]::DarkMan: Not me!
Blatant: Exactly dont make gold worth as much and so people wont depend on it and so gold farmers wont have as much buyers since gold is not nessicary to move on to lets say get the epic mount or that one enchant mats
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: exactly.
Aro: agreed ferris
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: it's all about how you feel on the topic
]SoV[ Ferris: Yelling at someone for nothing isn't illegal. Should I do it?
]SoV[ Ferris: No. It comes down to morals.
eNx.: yes :D
The Chosen One: It can be :P.
Nodgene: Yes, there would still be people using "gold" or in-game currency, what should be encouraged is a barter system. I mean, most MMORPGs are meant to be set in an era or likeness where most people didn't have an expendable income. And yet they are designed to mimic modern economic systems of disposable income. This should be discouraged.
eNx.: lol
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: eenx u dirty boy XD
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Well if the game allows it and the creator does not mind then it's not really deemed 'wrong' however it will affect other players and such so the players would see it as wrong but not really be able to do anything about it as there were no legal rules stating you couldn't.
eNx.: x)
:[SB]::DarkMan: You know, if they HAVE to sell items, they can just sell items that do the same as "the other items", but just LOOK cooler!
Aro: morals depends on your point of view though
eNx.: exactly
Aro: it comes down to personal opinion
:[SB]::DarkMan: making everyone know that he's a "donator" or something
]SoV[ Ferris: Yeah, and that's what this debate is about; opinions
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: dark thats what happens in flyff.
danzar: Why is it wrong for a people not to have the time to commit 8 hours a day to something where soemoen else can.. is it fair for you to own the kickbutt weapon where as i cant and have less fun because of that?
eNx.: yeah
:[SB]::DarkMan: I don't know flyff, so I can't comment on that
Blatant: A moral is a message conveyed or a lesson to be learned from a story or event. The moral may be left to the hearer, reader or viewer to determine for themselves.
The Chosen One: True but a RPG is just no matter how you put it TIME AND EFFORT.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: lol you can buy special items that are for looks.
uT | Greaterix: agree with Nod - We should see features built into auction houses letting the seller set an item for instant trade instead of a buyout price
Trentish: Dan: if you're not having fun playing a game casually then you're playing the wrong game
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: morely wrong in all types of games against tos or not but if I could do it and not void TOS and I was just in a bind I would only purchase what I needed for the ime not enough to cause huge dramtic changes. because if I bough just a average item for a cheap price and was short say a gold or two I would buy only 2 gold but not enought to uber me out
Trentish: and it's up to the market to create a game for casual gamers
eNx.: but if people give a company eg. Blizzard financial support, it's the least they can do in giving them some good stuff...
Aro: in swg you can do that auction or instant buy
eNx.: "Beggars can't be choosers."
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: has anyone actually been "hacked"?
]SoV[ Ferris: I suppose that's what the ultimate answer to this debate is, Enx
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: on rs
Aro: well
:[SB]::DarkMan: Me... Gunbound
The Chosen One: Luckily no.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: yeah i lost a 125 and 109
Aro: my best friewnd
:[SB]::DarkMan: and no, I did NOT tell anyone my account info
[Xfire] Artaxs: We are having a chat with the community managers and producers from Flyff on September 7th, if you wanted to learn more about one of the most popular Free-To-Play MMOs.
http://www.xfire.com/cms/xf_flyff/
]SoV[ Ferris: Just because the players complain about it, doesn't mean it will change anything.
eNx.: rs as well yea
eNx.: items only tho
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: ./hug Artaxs
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: My bro was on RS too
eNx.: :>
]SoV[ Ferris: I have been hacked on FFXI, GDl4evr
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: did they get through the pin also though?
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: rs is stupid imo
eNx.: oh, mentioning RS and inflation, remember the phat dupe
Aro: RS is not a full blown mmo
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: This was before pins bro.
eNx.: it has a steady economy though.
]SoV[ Ferris: RS is just an MORPG
]SoV[ Ferris: Imo
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: never been hacked in a game thank whoever
:[SB]::DarkMan: Speaking of hacking, there's even something worse than hacking Steam - hacking online pay services, such as PayPal
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: if any of you have ever a f2p mmorpg then you knowthat power up stores or premuims are easly incooperated so why not justsell gold also?
The Chosen One: RS is a mmorpg whatever you think of it is irrelevant now.
eNx.: ^^
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: =P
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: yeah using a brute forcer hacking paypal is illegal but paypal supports getting your money back
Aro: the iternet is dangerous, so is the world
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: it has an economy why is rs irrelevant?
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: true
:[SB]::DarkMan: Oh yeah, and about that "cool items stuff"... I think that Gunz Online has that sort of things
Aro: you prob have a higher chance of getting your identity stolen in the real world
eNx.: RS has 1 million members --> mmorpg
]SoV[ Ferris: It's not irrelevant
The Chosen One: no what you think of the game itself.
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: dont get me started on psypals policys
The Chosen One: is irrelevant
[Platnex] Wildhammer Eu: *paypal
eNx.: lol
:[SB]::DarkMan: eNx: SourceForge has over 1 million members -> not mmorpg
[Xfire] Artaxs: Have you ever tried to get your money out of Paypal? They hold onto it for interest as long as they can.
:[SB]::DarkMan: so your statement doesn't confirm anything :P
]SoV[ Ferris: lol..
eNx.: what's sourceforge?
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: rs has 1 million active and non active around 300,000 active thats about 450,000 different people a day
eNx.: :)
]SoV[ Ferris: A website
:[SB]::DarkMan: ... you don't know what sourceforge is?
Aro: opensource dev community i think
The Chosen One: *raises hand too*
:[SB]::DarkMan: www.sourceforge.net
eNx.: hold on, google ^^
eNx.: oh thx
The Chosen One: text based or so?
:[SB]::DarkMan: it's a website
[Xfire] SDaria: *****FINAL QUESTION*****
Joe: What about the future? Where is virtual property going, as a business? Will a company as big as Blizzard ever sell gold? Will microtransactions rule the day? What will we be debating in five years?
eNx.: what does this have to do with mmorpgs?
:[SB]::DarkMan: wow, we're that far?
:[SB]::DarkMan: read up
:[SB]::DarkMan: above
eNx.: already?
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. So if it is online, has loads of players and is a roleplaying game. It is an MMORPG.
The Chosen One: Blizzard. no Don't see it happening they are to anti gold farming right now.
Trentish: I think we'll see some new stuff become more common (like microtransactions) but I still think we'll be debating the same topic for awhile.
]SoV[ Ferris: There will someday be a company that will be selling their currency for a small price.
[ZiiP]Lazzars: it may come to pass that selling gold is more profitable than running a subscription
danzar: ..
]SoV[ Ferris: Because it adds to their revenue
:[SB]::DarkMan: Syl, that definition is debatable... WCIII isn't a MMO
danzar: Noone will stop gold farming..
:[SB]::DarkMan: it is RTS, but it can be RPG - depends
eNx.: do they actually need more than 1.4B a year?
Aro: i think over time the market will get smaller as developing nations become developed eough to have their own reals good to barter in the world stage
Khisanth: I hope they DON'T sell gold, it'll mess up everything and encourage others to do the same
danzar: I sell away
danzar: i say sell away
The Chosen One: It will be like this for a while UNTILL the TOS becomes THE LAW aka GOD aka Chuck Norris.
]SoV[ Ferris: They are living the American dream, Enx. And laughing all the way to the bank each month
Aro: it will fall to someone else, less capable possibly
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: people will do thing even only for the rush if you make is prefered then it will not be as abussed
KoF ßmkħ: lol @ chuck norris
eNx.: that's so true :D
]SoV[ Ferris: The goal of capitalism is to make as much money as you can, and they are doing it
[ZiiP]Lazzars: the virtual goods market will probably take off somewhat and then have to be "legalised" to accomadate the demand
danzar: I say lets accept it and make guide line to follow
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: how much money are these "farmers " actually making though?
danzar: thats the wave of the future of it
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Virutal property is defantly going somewhere as a business. Imo i dont see blizzard ever selling gold. Because they have the money with the 9 million people that pay. Im no sure about in 5 years what we'll be talking about but whatever happenes lets play it by ear.
:[SB]::DarkMan: I'm guessing a nice amount
]SoV[ Ferris: They make less than half of the actual sale price, GDl
eNx.: exactly
Aro: not much to ours standards
Blatant: varies and not much money themslefes most goes to the company selling it
Nodgene: MMORPG companies should and I don't think would sell "gold", it would undermine those players who worked hard to earn theirs in-game. What future companies need to do is to remove currency altgoethor, it would remove the illigal in-game currency trade... The problem with this is that although trade would still exist, it wouldn't be "easier", and because most of the time (if wow gamers are any indication) what is simple and undemanding will always go.
Aro: but alot to theirs
eNx.: well said mitch
The Chosen One: about 120 U.S. dollars per month, while workers at a larger gold farm in Fuzhou earn the equivalent of about 250 U.S. dollars per month
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: But Dark isn't WCIII counted as an RTS as opposed to RPG? (I never played II. Only WCII and then WoW)
The Chosen One: take it as a guideline.
:[SB]::DarkMan: Nodgene: There will be an exception, sooner or later
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: * III
Aro: Dota?
eNx.: wc3 = rts
]SoV[ Ferris: The debate in 5 years will probably be "Why can we not buy and sell virtual items as we please?"
Nodgene: I would hope so, darkman ;)
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: it's a rpgsg
[Xfire] Artaxs: DotA = Defense of the Ancients -- WC3 mod / map
eNx.: dota's different :)
:[SB]::DarkMan: I'd hope not
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Role playiing strat game
Aro: I thenk the debate is who will farm for us now
:[SB]::DarkMan: about WC3
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: usually the people who farm also have bots
:[SB]::DarkMan: it depends
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: double money
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: I think MMOs need to find a way to eat money personaly not give it out because you create all this money from monsters but it does not disapeare unles that char never comes back
[ZiiP]Lazzars: 5 years down the line it will be common and people will be clamoring for it to be allowed
:[SB]::DarkMan: singleplayer campaign is a hybrid... skirmish is more RTS
eNx.: wc3 is GENERALLY an rts, so i guess you must consider it an rts
:[SB]::DarkMan: bonus campaign is RPG
Aro: in the FT
The Chosen One: lets say on topic :)
]SoV[ Ferris: Pickles, when Square-enix finds RMTs in FFXI, they delete the character, gil and all
:[SB]::DarkMan: DotA is RPG
eNx.: yea, we're drifting off
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: ya...
]SoV[ Ferris: They've deleted about 50 billion gil, the currency, in total
:[SB]::DarkMan: UT2004RPG is RPFPS ;)
danzar: BTW no hard felling for anyone that see things diffent then i do
[Xfire] Artaxs: But you have to wonder, *why* are so many MMO players willing to *pay* to avoid significant portions of the game?
eNx.: LOL
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: So then WCIII would not fall under MMORPG anyways so then it couldn't be debated. It would just fall under MMO
eNx.: stalker anyone?
Aro: they want the end level
Aro: the best part
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: laziness obviously.
[Xfire] Artaxs: You practically have to be an unemployed insomniac to get your Epic Flyer in WoW.
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: lineage 2 use to be a great game
melari: because there will always be lazy people
Aro: it's like eating only the desert, it's not good
Trentish: I disagree, I think gold selling and the like will be frowned upon by a majority of the community for a long time. It will be a common problem with at least the next few generations of games.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: as the world spins more and more people become lazy
The Chosen One: 1. Cause they can.
2. Lazy.
3. Desire to rule above others without effort.
eNx.: that's because people want stuff without working for it
]SoV[ Ferris: @Trent: The problem is, do they care?
[ZiiP]Lazzars: true chosen
]SoV[ Ferris: Most likely, they don't, they just want to play
eNx.: which is crap
Trentish: the devs?
:[SB]::DarkMan: Yeah, buying gold or powerleveling really takes the joy out of the game... Kinda like beating Doom with noclip, god, fly, all weapons, etc etc on
Aro: @ mitch as long as the playing field isn't level
melari: there are always those who rather work for what they have
[Xfire] Artaxs: You don’t think it’s an inherent flaw in the game design? Why the gold grind in the first place?
eNx.: but in the end, isn't that their choice?
[Xfire] Dayoni: Blizzard put in daily quests as an alternative to farming.
]SoV[ Ferris: No, the people involved in RMT (Which is what I think you were talkig about)
The Chosen One: Then it comes down to the TOS again.
Aro: i beat Q4 using no clip! crappy game though.
Blatant: Want things without working the who Casual vs. Hardcore debae all over again
Trentish: I think they care at least enough to know people aren't going to like it. If enough people don't like it, they won't buy their product
eNx.: the problem is when it f...s up the game for the rest of us
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: yeah it is their choice. a sad choice.
The Chosen One: And we are in a round circle and can start all over again :P.
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: WoW actually has a decent story line.
eNx.: but it still is their choice
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: but most people avoid it.
]SoV[ Ferris: Not really
Aro: history repeats itself
eNx.: and we can't mess with it
]SoV[ Ferris: Only to people who played Warcraft originally can really appreciate the story
Aro: it will come around again
eNx.: yea
:[SB]::DarkMan: Yap, that is a problem. It's really unfair for some people work their way up, and other powerlevel and buy gold
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: but the creators can take action to stop them
eNx.: so buy w3 everybody! :P
Trentish: I agree that they can, it is a free market, I just don't think the market will head that way
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: I didnt and i appreacaite it.
The Chosen One: I love warcraft 2 for the feeling, the music.
Trentish: there's enough people who won't buy a game like that
eNx.: hmm
|WND|mastermc0: to be honest i think they need to try to find a way to make RMT fair to all users those who wish to pay and those who don't... which is if i'm honest close to if not impossible
[Xfire] Artaxs: But “the fantasy of the game is ruined when people turn it into a bloiting sweatshop!” - Oxhorn
Trentish: that's not to say that there won't be games like that
Trentish: there already are
:[SB]::DarkMan: it's kinda like between "a poor peasant and a rich, fat businessman"
Nodgene: Neat idea, styxnkc, but they'dhave to make it clear when you agreed to the EULA that doing so would result in insta-ban. A good inovation though.
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: its not really unfair... people who work work ppl wor got money use it its still a equal exchange
[ZiiP]Lazzars: nice artaxas
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Hey art how much more time?
Aro: you plsy the game how you want it, isn't that the idea behind mmos and other non linlinear games?
styxnkc: @Mr. Pickles your question in the question room no it is not wrong for someone to give a new player a insane ammount of money if they are not buying it from a online store and it doesnt violate the eula or tos agreement but be careful about recieving gold of high ammounts as some game companies can have and will ban your account over recieving a large sum of gold like that
Trentish: I just don't think it will become acceptable in the mainstream
eNx.: i know this sounds really unfair, but the devs should at least give an advantage to the players actually playing the decent game (mostly through quests) against powerlevelling
The Chosen One: No, you play someone elses game.
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Exactly Aro.
:[SB]::DarkMan: Untrainable: The thing is that you can get 100 hours of in-game "work" for 1 real-life work
The Chosen One: In a singleplayer game you can do all you want imo.
]SoV[ Ferris: It's a privilege, not a right
|WND|mastermc0: i agree artaxs but the devs/publishers need to find a way to make it fun for those who are not willing to or can't pay and those who can and are willing
Trentish: Aro: to a point, but it's imporant to promote an environment where the most people have fun
Blatant: I dont think RMT should be a good thing ever. I mean I pay for my game then I pay by the month now I pay to get items and other things all just for a game not worth it
The Chosen One: In a online game you should (or they should make it HAVE TOO) respect others and obay the TOS.
|WND|mastermc0: that way they don't lose custom
eNx.: more priority on quests?
eNx.: whats RMT btw?
Blatant: Real Market Trade
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: yea I had it happen in one game were someone gave me a ton of mioney but nothing ever happned
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yes you should but many dont.
]SoV[ Ferris: I lend you my lawnmower. You don't own it, and if you do something with it I feel is stupid, I can take it away, because it's not yours
[Xfire] Artaxs: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/96910.html
eNx.: oh ok thanks :)
:[SB]::DarkMan: Blatant: also don't forget the expansions :)
Blatant: Reason I quit WoW :)
:[SB]::DarkMan: so basically
The Chosen One: Real Money Trading (RMT)
eNx.: :)
Aro: the best comprimisse is when noone is happy
]SoV[ Ferris: What was, Blatant?
[ZiiP]Lazzars: onc e a game becomes as popular as wow then it becomes extremally hard to admin everyone and this is where the problem comes from really
eNx.: true
:[SB]::DarkMan: Internet fees, expansions, monthly fees PLUS buying gold... Lots and lots of cash
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: but can he sue him for ruining your lawnmower that you lent him? ferris
Blatant: exactly
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: yeah
Blatant: police the whole game very hard to enforce the rules
Nodgene: not if you make invovative enough systems.
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: the bigger they get te harder they fall...
The Chosen One: I quit WoW because shamans joined the Alliance and Paladinds the Horde.
I know I know !@#$ the !@#$ up all :P. I told you I had a real big sence of honour :D.
Aro: yes you need a crapload of gms to patrol the game
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: theres two meanings of harder.
Adj the Demonic: to accomodate stuff like policing, you'd have to build it from the ground up with AIs
eNx.: any rule you put down, people will see a loophole through it
Nodgene: if you get enough money will "Millions" of members, you can invest that into smart-security patches and such, or else you're just being an idiot.
Blatant: and GM coast money and time
dkelly1: Blatant - you don't have to buy gold. but why should the person who wants to give some cash to another gamer for some of his gold not be able to do so?
:[SB]::DarkMan: The Chosen One, just wait until they introduce "World of Warcraft: The Borg"
]SoV[ Ferris: Rofl Darkman
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: lmfao
Aro: with a 30:1 gm to player ratio blizzard wold need 300,00 gms
eNx.: ^^
|WND|mastermc0: good poinr dkelly
:[SB]::DarkMan: All your base are belong to us!
|WND|mastermc0: point*
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: all your gold are belong to us atm.
Adj the Demonic: well they oughta start more recruitment
danzar: good debate guys
Blatant: lol
eNx.: true
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: pease
eNx.: :D
Aro: no all of your propety are belong to us
uT | Greaterix: yeh - been interesting :)
[ZiiP]Lazzars: but most
danzar: yea very
Blatant: All your gold are belong to us (says the gold farmers)
eNx.: all your gold are belong to meh! :O
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: your life are belong to us
:[SB]::DarkMan: more like
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: would you guys sacrifice excellent graphics for a great economy system?
danzar: one of the better ones i been in a while
Adj the Demonic: yes
eNx.: not really
The Chosen One: yes
The Chosen One: Its 2 sides to the end. Those who say TOS is "god" (for lack of better term) and those that say you should be able to do what you want.
In the end the 1st group is right / more right since its the developrs game and all.
styxnkc: yes
Aro: yes
eNx.: since economy is only part of the game
:[SB]::DarkMan: All your money are belong to us. 1/100 of our gold are belong to you.
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: just curious
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: Yeah not runescape though.
Nodgene: It's their game, so no, you have no "right", just as a real club that you pay for could kick you out if they don't like you.
eNx.: lol forget rs ^^
Mr.Pickles{EgC}: sweet I get a x-fire t shirt!
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: nice
Blatant: gratz
[ZAM] Malgayne: Grats. :)
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: xD
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: im saying for future games
eNx.: :
Adj the Demonic: gz man
Aro: i would like a game where people are spesponsible for their own actions
:[SB]::DarkMan: and gratz
[ZAM] Malgayne: For future games I think that's totally valid. I think it falls aparte when you agree, as part of the terms of service of the game, that you won't do that
eNx.: that's impossible
:[SB]::DarkMan: tomorrow I buy those shirt-printing papers
:[SB]::DarkMan: I'll find a big X somewhere
Aro: we can drea,
The Chosen One: Strange, they missed me :).
Aro: m
Khisanth: lol
eNx.: coz of the medium between the player and the devs - the pc
]SoV[ Ferris: How do I PM him anywh? D:
:[SB]::DarkMan: it BURNS!
]SoV[ Ferris: anywho*
dakirakhartas: buh bye everyone
:[SB]::DarkMan: all I can hear is the "user left" sound
The Chosen One: go to your normal list
eNx.: bye bye
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: xD
The Chosen One: of xfire
Trentish: thanks all, was fun
Adj the Demonic: yes, people do need responsibility of their own actions, so the company doesn't have to take the heat and ruin stuff for the rest of the players
The Chosen One: and to friends.
[HeroesforHire]Sylviana: Lol same Dark
:[SB]::DarkMan: sounds like artillery
]SoV[ Ferris: He isn't there
:[SB]::DarkMan: once you get used to it
:[SB]::DarkMan: COOOOOVER!
[gT-R]UntrainableKiller: lol arty
Blatant: good stuff everyone later
:[SB]::DarkMan: (I got bass high)
[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: And finally, 5 debaters win an Xfire Tee-Shirt!
They are:
:[SB]::DarkMan
]SoV[ Ferris
danzar
uT | Greaterix
Mr.Pickles{EgC}
eNx.: arty, u kicking people?
danzar: lets see who is las
©Moyko©\\[¤Mitch¤]: cya
-=||[R]||=- GDI4evr: oh nice
:[SB]::DarkMan: hmm?
The Chosen One: Well everyone it was fun.
danzar: sweet
eNx.: dont kick meh :
danzar: Thanks
Adj the Demonic: ya, the 5 seconds I managed to catch, good debate
:[SB]::DarkMan: Thanks
|WND|mastermc0: bye everyone thanks xfire and thanks to all the people here
eNx.: bye guys cu next dbate :)
The Chosen One: God... what to do now....
Aro: you inflated thoose egos so much we need to beat them
dkelly1: bye all. thanks for the questions and conversation.
]SoV[ Ferris: He still isn't on my friend list D:
Aro: cyas i enjoyed mydself
:[SB]::DarkMan: Yeah, it was a great debate... Had to get used to overflooding this room
[Xfire] Artaxs: The next debate club will be announced soon on the Two-Handed Sword Clan page and the debate club website. It won’t be long, I promise!