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Xfire Debate Club 6th Meeting: WoW Classes
June 19th, 2007 (Main Floor Transcript)
[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Hello! We are very pleased to welcome everyone to the 6th Xfire Debate Club! The topic of today’s debate is: The World of Warcraft Classes! Please welcome our special guests from who will now introduce themselves and start taking your questions!
This is the first event in the Ridiculously Long Lasting Stride Xfire Cup 2007 Finals Festival. Check out more at: www.xfire.com/stride!
[Xfire] mbg: remember no spam in open debate room or you will be muted
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Hi, I'm Elizabeth Wachowski from WoW Insider. I've been invited to moderate this debate. I play a rogue and a paladin on the U.S. Magtheridon server.
mek[Cu]: Hi im Phil/Mek I'm one of the guild masters and raid leader of Curse Guild on Vek'nilash EU, im playing Shaman
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Hello! I'm Skosiris from Wowhead.com. I play a warlock and a mage on the Mug'Thol realm (US)
[WoR] Teza: Hello everyone, i am Maxime "Teza" Perignon from Worldofraids. I am currently playing on Vek'nilash EU, playing a rogue in Curse
SK|Tarde: Hello, I'm Tarde, a mage in Warders. We play on Stormscale EU and will play in the EU Regionals this weekend.
mek[Cu]: The world's fattest gnome :(
[WoR] Teza: true
SK|Tarde: That's me=)
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Aww, cute. But only if you have pigtails.
mek[Cu]: 3 from the original Stormscale EU server, fun !
[WoR] Teza: indeed
[Huks]Tiz: Hi my name is Tiz. I am and Orc warlock from the Rampage battlegroup and play on the Huk5's Arena team. We recently placed first in Blizzard's NA regionals.
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: We're also expecting the rogue Ming at ... some point.
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Thanks for coming to the debate tonight, guys. First off, I'll ask the question that's the title of the debate: What are the best and worst classes in WoW right now, from your perspective?
mek[Cu]: Are we talking from PvP or PvE ?
SK|Tarde: From my point of view, warrior and paladin are the best classes and rogue is the worst.
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Either/or, whichever you feel most inclined to comment on :)
[WoR] Teza: all classes got their min and plus depending on encounters (pve) or setup (pvp), although some classes have advantages in patches
mek[Cu]: From a PvP perspective I would have to agree with Tarde
[Huks]Tiz: All classes have their ups and downs, but if I was to pin which one I thought was the most overpowered in competitive pvp, i would pick warrior.
mek[Cu]: and tbh in PvE it's pretty much the same
Nuvas: From a 5v5 perspective, I see Warrior as the strongest class. Closely followed by Paladin.
Nuvas: worst in 5v5 would probably go to Rogue.
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Mek and Tarde, t least three of us here tonight play rogues, and rogues are often the target of complaints about PVP and class balance from both sides. With a class that can "come out of nowhere", stunlock you, and use an ability to remove caster dots and confer magic immunities, a lot of people seem to find the rogue style of PVP unfair. But the new trinkets will be able to break Sap and Blind, and Resilience puts a hurt on many crit-dependent rogues in Arena. Why do you think rogues are underwhelming?
[WoR] Teza: i do agree for the paladin, if you take a look at stats on class repartition in pvp groups
mek[Cu]: Rogues only really work in 4 dps teams imo
[Huks]Tiz: The real problem with rogues is warriors. They do everything a rogue can do better, and are just far more dangerous with support.
[Wowhead] Skosiris: I don't think there's no such thing as the "best class", all classes are enjoyable! However, there definitely are classes that are a bit weaker than the others. It also varies depending on the talents spec.
mek[Cu]: they can take one caster out of play and so some decent dps on him
[Huks]Tiz: Put a warrior on a rogue, and suddenly the rogue is in deep dirt.
mek[Cu]: agree
mek[Cu]: but look at a team like Feel the Pain
mek[Cu]: there rogue really works very very well
mek[Cu]: because they are a 4 dps setup
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Are certain classes and specs just more suited for play in an arena setting than others?
mek[Cu]: the rogue removes 1 dps'er from them
SK|Tarde: Rogues do well the first 30 seconds of a 5vs5, but after that a warrior will always be better.
Nuvas: 4 dps setups generally don't work though.
mek[Cu]: allowing them to play with 1 healer ?
mek[Cu]: sure they do
mek[Cu]: once again, look at Feel the Pain
[Huks]Tiz: potentially removes. You will have a hard time convincing me you cant counter that.
mek[Cu]: who are easy favourites for the EU qualifiers
Nuvas: the US regionals was littered with 4 dps setups, and we did exceptionally well against them.
[WoR] Teza: i would say rogues are more gear dependant than any other classes to be effective in pvp
mek[Cu]: 2 affliction warlocks, shadow priest, rogue, pala
mek[Cu]: i agree a lot of 4 dps setups don't work
mek[Cu]: this one does
mek[Cu]: they are completely unaffected by resilience
mek[Cu]: or well almost
Nuvas: 4 dps setups have very little versatility in their strategies however.
SK|Tarde: yeah, that is a big advantage
[Wowhead] Skosiris: There definetly are better specs and class combos for arenas, especially in 2v2, but it's really up to the classes and builds of the opponents you are facing
mek[Cu]: well im sure Tarde has played against feel the pain
SK|Tarde: we have, and it was a nice setup for us to play against
SK|Tarde: we usually survived the burst and outlasted them
[Huks]Tiz: I personally think any setup that entirely relies on getting a quick killl is not going to be the best way to go. Certainly it can be made to work, but it lacks the versatility of a balanced team.
mek[Cu]: were u playing with dosferra as enhancement or elemental ?
SK|Tarde: but with the addition of arena water im not sure what will happen
SK|Tarde: enhance
SK|Tarde: enhancement shamans are much better vs feel the pain
mek[Cu]: yup
[Huks]Tiz: Clann Hexx ran a great 4dps setup, but if you threw in plenty of healing and a good defense, its counterable.
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Along those lines, for those of you who are arena players, what sort of combinations are most feared by your team?
SK|Tarde: and those kinds of setups
mek[Cu]: you need heavy melee dps and good CC to beat a team like that
Nuvas: disagree completely
SK|Tarde: mostly feared for me is the EU flavour of the month, mage/pala/ele shaman/priest/warrior
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Ming !
Nuvas: melee dps requires you to be in next to the target, which means that you can leave your healers very easily
Nuvas: healer range, that is
SK|Tarde: on the other hand melee dps isnt mitigated that much by the warlocks
SK|Tarde: such as curse of tongues
mek[Cu]: exactly
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Ming, we're talking about which classes work best in an arena setting
[Huks]Tiz: No, but they are much more vulnerable to snare effects obviously. Not everyone can have a freedom.
mek[Cu]: well we're talking about 4 dps teams
mek[Cu]: like the feel the pain setup
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Warlock/Paladin and Warlock/Priest are the most painful combos I face
minglb: arigato
Nuvas: curse of weakness + fear works perfectly fine against melee dps
Nuvas: of course, warriors are much more difficult to fear
SK|Tarde: we feel that melee shaman is better vs 4dps, as long as it isn't 4 melees
mek[Cu]: but dosferra is elemental now right ?
SK|Tarde: the only reason we had to switch to elemental shaman was hunter teams
mek[Cu]: what caused you to switch that ?
mek[Cu]: ok
minglb: This is Ming from worldofming.com, sorry I am late, had to finish something at the office
Nuvas: hunters are fairly common in 5s
SK|Tarde: with the migration to our battlegroup alot of hunter teams came here and made dosferra stand in traps all day
mek[Cu]: well i also agree that the strongest setup is the EU FotM :P
mek[Cu]: pala/war/e. shaman/h. priest/mage
mek[Cu]: switching in a lock for the mage is also nice with the new water
SK|Tarde: as far as I have seen it's the best overall setup
SK|Tarde: indeed
mek[Cu]: let's talk about pve imo !
minglb: it is because all the classes listed have huge buffs for eachother
mek[Cu]: ;D
[Huks]Tiz: I cant really comment on that spec being as I dont think anyone on the US has had any success at all.
minglb: druid have fairly weak buffs
minglb: rogue has none
Nuvas: there are no sucessful enhancement shaman in the US.
SK|Tarde: it's very rare with enhance shamans
mek[Cu]: i think you will find that EU teams perform significantly better than US teams
mek[Cu]: the top ones that is
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: There are a lot of class abilities that get complaints in PVP -- Cloak of Shadows, Cyclone, and Mortal Strike among them. Do you think that there are any really make-or-break Arena abilities?
[Huks]Tiz: I doubt it, but we will see.
Nuvas: We will find out come Blizzcon.
mek[Cu]: and im not turning this into and EUvsUS debate, I just think the level is higher due to more players and more playtime
Nuvas: but iI don't see what you're basing that off of.
SK|Tarde: Mortal Strike is for sure
SK|Tarde: Cyclone will be less game-breaking with the trinket-change
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Yeah, MS is probably the msot make-or-break ability
mek[Cu]: im basing it on pretty much every competitive game there has every beat Nuvas
minglb: I believe the current PVP system is extremely outdated, a lot of abilities stayed same since the beginning which shouldn't be the case
mek[Cu]: &been
mek[Cu]: *
[Wowhead] Skosiris: However, as I'm playing two caster classes, I admit that cloak of shadows is a real pain.
mek[Cu]: rogues are already underpowered in 5v5 in most setups
minglb: cloak of shadows is a joke at heavy weight range
mek[Cu]: i don't believe that CoS is overpowered at all
minglb: rogue is extremely underpowered 1v1 as well
mek[Cu]: (in that setting)
minglb: every single class geared/specced for 1v1 can defeat a rogue with ease
mek[Cu]: i don't really consider 1v1 balance relevant
[Huks]Tiz: I dont really care about 1v1 though.
mek[Cu]: it's not a 1v1 game
[WoR] Teza: wont say every single class
minglb: 1v1 weakness leaks over to 5v5 weakness
Nuvas: Well, Mek, I can see your logic on that, however there hasn't been a competetive MMO until now. At any rate though, continuing that this topic would be moot.
minglb: you can get on PTR I will find someone
minglb: that beat you with whatever class of your choice
mek[Cu]: ye nuvas
minglb: a lot of people say warriors are weak 1v1, it is not true at all
minglb: they beat quite a few classes/specs, especially with 2.1.2 trinkets
mek[Cu]: but 1v1 is not important :)
SK|Tarde: back to the topic, i feel that MS and blessing of freedom is the best abilities in the game right now.
mek[Cu]: and cyclone, but again, the trinket etc..
[Huks]Tiz: Honestly, i think rogues would be fine if warriors werent such an overpowering version of them.
[WoR] Teza: with the latest trinket changes
[WoR] Teza: o agree with tarde
minglb: they are the best because they remained the same since beginning
mek[Cu]: oomkins are the most underated 5v5 class atm
mek[Cu]: !
Nuvas: I'd say mortal strike is far more powerful than blessing of freedom.
SK|Tarde: they are underrated but not that good either
minglb: I am 100% sure they will be re-worked
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: About the trinket changes -- which classes will be hurt the most by those? Will the new trinkets lead to a major revamp in PVP strategy?
SK|Tarde: rogues and druids will be hurt most
mek[Cu]: druid
Nuvas: there is very little strategy to using mortal strike, it can jsut be spammed and be very effective.
minglb: the trinket changes hurt classes relying on CCs most
mek[Cu]: the fact that there was nothing to remove cyclone was ...
minglb: and for classes that have very little CC's to begin with
minglb: shamans, warriors
minglb: it is a god send for them
[Huks]Tiz: Trinket just gives people another option to not be completely screwed by a couple class abilities. Its a bigger issue in 2's and 3's matches then anything
mek[Cu]: the trinket adresses this but it's a massive nurf to druids in 5v5
[Huks]Tiz: and the only balance I really care about is 5's
[Huks]Tiz: where it will be far more insignificant
minglb: I believe 3v3 has greater potential to bring in audience and $$$ for the game
minglb: but that is just me
SK|Tarde: it's a pretty big buff for shamans
mek[Cu]: i agree it's not massive in 5v5 but it makes u even less likely to bring certain already underused classes
minglb: so far I have not seen a single truly entertaining 5v5 video
Nuvas: yeah, the relative signifigance of the trinket change will have little impact in 5s.
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: So to sum up, what do you guys consider the biggest balance issues in WoW PVP right now?
[WoR] Teza: well none would like to risk a loss because of frpasing
mek[Cu]: 3v3 is too affected by setup
mek[Cu]: imo
minglb: scrub friendly classes like warrior/warlock need to be nerfed
mek[Cu]: making to top players less likely to play it
minglb: that is the biggest issue
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Can you expand on that, Ming?
SK|Tarde: warriors are overpowered
mek[Cu]: *the
[Huks]Tiz: Warrior MS being on too short of a cooldown, and being able to be kept up virtually indefinitely.
[Huks]Tiz: Its overpowered, and has been since release.
Nuvas: Single most overpowered ability I have found in 5s is the warrior Mace Spec talent.
mek[Cu]: i seriously doubt MS will ever be nurfed
minglb: pre-TBC, warrior could either have damage from shaman
minglb: or anti-kiting from paladin
minglb: now
minglb: they have both
minglb: there is no reason not to get both
Nuvas: a warrior with a storm herald can stunlock and do more damage than a rogue.
minglb: so every 5v5 team starts with a warrior/shaman/paladin core
minglb: the abilities of shaman and paladin makes warrior way, way too strong
minglb: I believe abilities like windfury and blessing of freedom should be limited to the host class themselves
[Huks]Tiz: No, thats stupid. ;P
minglb: windfury is another retarded mechanic that hasn't been changed for a very long time
mek[Cu]: no :)
mek[Cu]: removing the windfury totem is never ever going to happen
minglb: blessing of freedom only self castable will also give retribution paladins playing time in arena
minglb: and will go a long way resolving the warrior imbalance
Nuvas: thats would far from fix ret paladins in arena
mek[Cu]: the flipside is that
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Ming, you brought up a good opportunity for a segue there
mek[Cu]: a warrior without blessing of freedom
mek[Cu]: is fairly week imo
minglb: they still have 15 second intercept
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Paladins are widely acknowledged as being extremely strong healers in both facets of the game, but many paladins believe that Retribution spec should also have a place in raid groups and arena teams. Do you think that Ret can ever be made viable in end-game, and should it even be viable?
minglb: they are not all that kiteable
minglb: they are not very kiteable
minglb: retribution can be very effective
SK|Tarde: I don't think it will be viable.
Nuvas: warriors are very easy to kite with the right abilities
[Huks]Tiz: Not in arenas.
minglb: if warrior gets nerfed
mek[Cu]: agree with nuvas
[WoR] Teza: not viable in pve at least
minglb: it is not because retribution is worthless
minglb: it is because warrior is superior in every way
Nuvas: a 1 second polymorph, root, nova etc will start the kite
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Every single spec *should* be viable in end-game.
[Wowhead] Skosiris: There is a lot of work to do before this can happen.
[Huks]Tiz: Unless a Ret paladin had MS, he would just be a subpar warrior, and its unlikely his damage would ever compare.
mek[Cu]: retri is completely useless in PvE and I would never bring one to a raid in their current state
mek[Cu]: they don't do enough dps
minglb: it is very easy for someone like tiz to sit on the most powerful 1v1 2v2 3v3 and one of the best 5v5 classes
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Sko, Teza, Mek: Is there anything you could think of that would make Ret better in PVE raiding?
[Huks]Tiz: Yes ming, because I dont play other classes
mek[Cu]: they need to do more dps :)
minglb: warlock/felguard is extremely scrub friendly
[WoR] Teza: give them a unique ability that would weaken the boss :x?
[Huks]Tiz: Which is why there are so many successful 5v5 felguard locks Ming
[Huks]Tiz: whats your arena success like?
Nuvas: Ming, thats a pretty ignorant statement.
minglb: #1 3v3 in my battlegroup
minglb: i am sure i would do better with a stronger class
minglb: in 5v5
minglb: like i said
[Huks]Tiz: Easy to say, hard to prove.
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Elizabeth: I have never played a paladin myself to be honest, but what I've seen mostly are aggro problems and not scaling that well with gear compared with other classes
minglb: i don't have to prove it
mek[Cu]: there's no aggro problems
mek[Cu]: they don't do enough dps to have aggro problems
minglb: ultimately I will be on the promotion side of things
minglb: people like you would one day be working for me
Nuvas: Ming, get off your high horse.
mek[Cu]: but more stuff will always be added
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Well said, ming.
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: By far, the class that's had the most arguments about being underpowered in PVE recently is the shaman. They feel that they don't have a defined role in endgame and cannot DPS or heal as well as other classes. Do you think the shaman complaints are valid? Does the class need fixing?
mek[Cu]: and it will always bring more "casual" publicity
[WoR] Teza: thats for mek
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: It's for everyone, really
mek[Cu]: underpowered in PvE ?
Nuvas: Shaman certainly have less avalible slots in PvE, so their overall demand is much less than other classes.
[WoR] Teza: he never complained so far
[Huks]Tiz: I have alot of respect for the guys whom have already cleared it. Keeping a raiding guild in top shape is no easy feat.
mek[Cu]: i play a Resto Shaman
mek[Cu]: it's not underpowered
mek[Cu]: at all
mek[Cu]: in PvE
Nuvas: however, shaman do perfectly fine in PvE.
[Wowhead] Skosiris: From what I've gathered, Shaman can be awesome at healing in end-game raids because of the incredible scaling power of Healing Wave
mek[Cu]: it's the best AoE healer, they give insane party buffs, bloodlust ...
mek[Cu]: in Curse im bringing 3 shamans to every boss
Nuvas: there is room for all specs of shaman, there are just more slots for resto shaman
mek[Cu]: all resto
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: What do you think about the totem system? Does it deserve a revamp?
mek[Cu]: it's a tricky one
Nuvas: difficult to say
mek[Cu]: in PvE it's fine
[WoR] Teza: dodgy even
mek[Cu]: just aslong as you don't have bugs like the spiders in Hyjal killing them
mek[Cu]: in PvP
mek[Cu]: u could give them more hp i guess
mek[Cu]: but it would probably become overpowered
Nuvas: well
[Wowhead] Skosiris: What's there to change about totems really? Since shaman are in both factions, there is no real imbalance and comparison possible. Totems are fine.
mek[Cu]: but in PvE it's second only to the Paladin and it's very close
SK|Tarde: Windfury Totem shouldn't be a 10sec buff
mek[Cu]: yeah i guess i agree with skosiris there
[Huks]Tiz: Yeah I agree SK.
SK|Tarde: It should be removed instantly when the totem is killed
mek[Cu]: hmm yeah i agree tarde
mek[Cu]: sometimes grounding can absorb more than one spell
mek[Cu]: that should also be fixed
Nuvas: i actually prefer the 10 second buff
minglb: shaman is already top tier in 1v1, 3v3, and 5v5
Nuvas: it allows for totem juggling from shaman.
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: All in all, do you think hybrid classes have more or less utility after BC, both in raiding and Arena?
SK|Tarde: it makes it almost worthless to kill wf totems
mek[Cu]: i don't understand why u put any weight on 1v1 or 3v3, i really don't
minglb: because WSVG is here to stay
minglb: and 5v5 isn't the only bracket with prizes
Nuvas: totems can cost a significant amount of mana, though, Tarde.
SK|Tarde: hybrid classes are about as good in PvP I guess
mek[Cu]: prizes are the only reason that good players will play in that tho
minglb: in fact WSVG pulled in 80,000 people in China
SK|Tarde: although the pvp changed alot in tbc
Nuvas: 99% of the shaman out there drop Windfury rank 5, which costs over 300 mana a pop.
minglb: 5v5 has counter teams too
minglb: don't pretend it doesn't exist
SK|Tarde: yeah, I still shoot them down
minglb: and 3v3 is far more entertaining to watch
mek[Cu]: they have way way more utility ewachowski
mek[Cu]: especially the druid
[Huks]Tiz: A counter in 5v5 is much more difficult then in 3v3. This game is balanced much better in 5's.
[Huks]Tiz: By a large margin.
SK|Tarde: agreed
Nuvas: yep
mek[Cu]: feral druids have become an essential class in PvE
minglb: not if you play rogue
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Can you expand on that, Mek?
mek[Cu]: well i remember when we started TBC PvE
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Well, thinking about shadowpriests and feral druids as far as off specs go, there has been a huge improvement here. These two specs used to be a no-no for any raids.
mek[Cu]: we always used only warrior tanks
mek[Cu]: as with naxx
mek[Cu]: but the feral druid now give better aggro generation
mek[Cu]: better AoE aggro control
minglb: ultimately the "top players" need to realize they are entertainers before serious competitors, once people start to get that mentality we will make it mainstream
mek[Cu]: and they do LOADS more dps while tanking
minglb: the 5v5 matches are extremely boring to watch
minglb: perhaps 4DPS vs 4DPS will change that
mek[Cu]: so we started bringing them and have never looked back
[Huks]Tiz: I disagree completely
[WoR] Teza: true skosiris, now they became quite wanted in end game raiding
mek[Cu]: and usually use 1-2 on each raid
[Huks]Tiz: And so would the people at the regionals
[Huks]Tiz: It was a very fun feel there.
[WoR] Teza: i see that everyday in recruitment posts
[Huks]Tiz: People int he audience whom hadnt even played wow more then casually were enjoying it.
Nuvas: the lack of mainstream entertainment of WoW is due to the fact that WoW is a complex game.
SK|Tarde: I think 5vs5 is really fun to watch, just have to make it more spectator friendly
mek[Cu]: Well with S.Priests they were overpowered before
[Huks]Tiz: I know because unlike you, I was there and talked with them.
mek[Cu]: now they are nice
mek[Cu]: 2 in a raid is perfect
mek[Cu]: on most bosses
mek[Cu]: and i agree with targe again
mek[Cu]: tarde
mek[Cu]: 5v5 is great to watch
[WoR] Teza: would be nice to have a spectator mode like in most of RTS
mek[Cu]: yeah that would be nice
Nuvas: a big thing about watching 5v5s is having the right camera angles
[Huks]Tiz: For sure Teza
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Along those lines, should "pure" classes like warriors and priests be the best choice for tanking/healing respectively in raids, or should hybrids be equal?
mek[Cu]: i'd watch 5v5 over 3v3 any day
[Huks]Tiz: I really hope Blizzard can work out the kinks with the broadcasting.
[Huks]Tiz: Their current system was already far better then Wuhan though.
mek[Cu]: it's less setup dependent, longer games and these things make it more entertaining
minglb: how is that possible? unlike basketball / hockey you don't have a "ball" to keep the eyes on
mek[Cu]: and because it's a better format it will always attract better players
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Hasnt there been some blizzard post about spectator mode?
minglb: things are far more messy in 5v5's
mek[Cu]: well u could have the same as FPS
minglb: most people won't be able to tell what is going on
[WoR] Teza: *in the works* skosiris
mek[Cu]: a roaming cam
mek[Cu]: + switching pov
mek[Cu]: in either case it's going to be superior in 5v5 ... not 3v3
[Huks]Tiz: Wait until Blizzcon before you make blanket statements you are probably wrong about IMO Ming.
[Huks]Tiz: If they can figure a way to create easy prompts to pick up on key things that happen in the battles itd be alot more fun
Nuvas: "Pure" classes should never have their primary role taken away from them. However, there can be specialized encounters that allow hybrids to tank as well or better.
[WoR] Teza: about last subject, hybrids shouldnt be equal to pure classes
[Huks]Tiz: Things like well placed counterspells, stuns, missed excecutes or whatever.
mek[Cu]: it's like leotheras
minglb: once in a year tournament isn't enough, there is room for both 5v5 and 3v3
mek[Cu]: the druids could kill their demons
minglb: and your scrub class in top tier in both
mek[Cu]: making them great OT's on that fight
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Elizabeth: Hybrids currently are not real hybrids. The need of different gear sets and specs kills the point of "being able to do everything, not as well as other classes".
mek[Cu]: it's the same with swipe on many other fights
minglb: let's just say we have a totally different view on how WOW should be marketed, ultimately our effort will create a bigger pie for both sides
mek[Cu]: try and focus on the questions a bit more tbh ming
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Okay, we're starting to take some questions from users now. At the end of the debate, I'll also invite the special guest panelists to ask a question of the other quests
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Cruelcodex: ***Question) There is a common issue that warriors become overgeared and extremely ineffective in PVE. An example is a warrior with T4/T5 entering a heroic as a Tank. The warrior has such good gear that he cant generate the amount of rage to hold agro against equally geared dps classes. Why should warriors have to take off their hard earned gear to do better?
mek[Cu]: i guess this is mine since it's PvE
minglb: maybe the warrior needs to L2P?
mek[Cu]: gear progression is always going to be tailored towards future encounters
mek[Cu]: doing lower instances u sometimes need to lower your gear to get more rage
mek[Cu]: ming this happens all the time
Nuvas: very common issue
Nuvas: more ignorance from ming
mek[Cu]: our MT has soo much avoidance if he does heroic he will get almost no rage
SK|Tarde: Even I have seen it!
mek[Cu]: so no aggro
minglb: strip some of yoru gear with greens?
mek[Cu]: u just gotta lower your gear a bit, there's no way around it
mek[Cu]: or chill with the dps :)
[Huks]Tiz: Chill with dps? Are you insane?!
mek[Cu]: hehe
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: [HeroesforHire]Muffeevee: Question: If you could remove, or replace any class what would it be and what would you change it for?
SK|Tarde: Or just make a mage kite-tank all the trash.
mek[Cu]: anyway if you are doing heroics
mek[Cu]: i'd reccoment a druid
Nuvas: its just silly that upgrades make it harder to hold aggro against softer hitting mobs
mek[Cu]: goes very fast !
mek[Cu]: bah nuvas there's no real way around it
Nuvas: yeah, unfortunately.
mek[Cu]: i'd remove hunters because they get no repair costs
mek[Cu]: :)
[WoR] Teza: hunters yeah
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: I was actually going to ask about hunter DPS earlier.
SK|Tarde: Hunters indeed=)
mek[Cu]: hunter dps is now fantastic
mek[Cu]: if they can keep their pet alive
mek[Cu]: otherwise it's not good
[Huks]Tiz: Id say hunters, just because I hate fighting against teams with good ones. ;)
mek[Cu]: beastmaster is the only really high dps spec they have
[Wowhead] Skosiris: "The first changes I would be implementing is the removal of the Hunter class and the addition of the Pandaren as a playable race."
mek[Cu]: give pandaren :)
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Come on, you know they'll never have Pandaren because then everyone would join that faction :)
SK|Tarde: Hunters forces us to use elemental shaman.
mek[Cu]: anyway a hunter with 41/20/0 or 42/19/0
mek[Cu]: can easily top the dps on any fight where the pet can dps and stay alive
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Along those lines, Alex|koogco: do you have any suggestions for one or two new classes in the next wow expansion? or have blizzard already reached the point where making more classes would just be mixtures of the old ones anyway?
[Huks]Tiz: Pandaren Warlock. The end of wow as we know it.
Nuvas: I'd prefer Blizzard to release Hero Classes before thinking off adding new classes!
mek[Cu]: agree with nuvas
minglb: paladin should be death knights
mek[Cu]: more specialisation would be cool
[Wowhead] Skosiris: There are so many classes ideas that could be implemented! For instance, Necromancers would be a cool addition =)
mek[Cu]: but we don't really need more classes
minglb: I think next expansion will be based on arthas
mek[Cu]: i'd like my shaman to be able to be a shadow hunter for example
SK|Tarde: Spellbreaker could be cool.
minglb: yeah would be amazing
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Vince (i2xa): What do you believe is the best combination for a 2vs2 arena team?
[WoR] Teza: would need more talents to offer large panel of playstyle
minglb: warlock/paladin
minglb: with soulink + curse of exhaution
minglb: has almost no counters
minglb: at equal gear
[Wowhead] Skosiris: *agrees with Ming*
minglb: at least i can't think of any
minglb: they out mana you
[Wowhead] Skosiris: a Warlock/Priest combo is very powerful as well
Nuvas: lock/paladin is definately one of the strongest combos.
minglb: paladin gives more options
[Huks]Tiz: It is a pretty nasty 2v2 combo right now, especially the aff/dem ones.
minglb: freedom kite against rogues
minglb: lock/priest loses to rogue/priest imo
minglb: but lock /paladin beats rogue/paladin
[WoR] Teza: well paladin is the fotm class in any setup
minglb: for that combo
minglb: lock/paladin beats rogue/priest too if the lock is specced properly
minglb: curse of exhuation kiting
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Omen: Question: Do you think the game has too many anti cc abilities? And why do you suppose they even implemented cc if all they want to do is take it away?
minglb: As a CC class, absolutely
mek[Cu]: because it adds a skill/timing element i guess
minglb: between trinkets, stun resist
SK|Tarde: For 5vs5, there is not too many anti-cc abilities imo.
Nuvas: in the 5v5 scene, there isn't enough anti CC at all to counter all the CC being thrown around.
[Huks]Tiz: I dont have a complaint with the general anti CC in the game. It adds versatility.
minglb: CC is different value for different classes
SK|Tarde: Just cast poly again=)
SK|Tarde: indeed.
minglb: when you play a warlock that can tank me without ever having to fear
minglb: you don't need ccs
[Huks]Tiz: The only anti-CC that really bothers me is amount of counters against fear, especially from warriors. Sucks to have your only defense mitigated for nearly a minute.
minglb: you just straight up dps me
minglb: and i lose
[Wowhead] Skosiris: CC is just fine in PvE, it's not too balanced in PvP though
[Huks]Tiz: Again, 1v1 means nothing.
minglb: as a rogue
mek[Cu]: try playing a shaman more if u wanna talk about countering fear :)
minglb: cc is our bread and butter
mek[Cu]: (and don't even mention tremor)
minglb: when you play a class
minglb: that has ZERO buff for others
minglb: you must be the strongest 1v1 class in the game
minglb: to be viable in 5v5
[Huks]Tiz: Tremor is poor against warlocks in 1v1, but superb in 5v5.
[Wowhead] Skosiris: You can't just remove it without breaking a lot of PvE content..
minglb: every class is poor against warlocks in 1v1
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: JediMan: id like to know their opinion on warlocks and chain fearing, is it overpowered, or is it necessary as a warlocks only means of defense?
[Huks]Tiz: Fearing when combined with dots is absolutely overpowered in 1v1 against alot of classes.
[Huks]Tiz: I would LOVE if they made fear harder to break, but damage broke it far easier.
Nuvas: even with the supposed nerf
minglb: fear is not the problem
minglb: the problem is the durability of the class
SK|Tarde: Chain fearing is kinda annoying in 5vs5, especially with lot's of AoE fears.
[Huks]Tiz: Ming, no other class has as few escape options. Stop please.
Nuvas: warlocks have no get away abilities, however. and they still take a lot of damage.
minglb: oh you have escape options if you choose to
minglb: coil
minglb: instant AOE fear
Nuvas: even with soul link, in 3v3 and 5v5, the pet gets heals
SK|Tarde: UA+Fear and UA+mindcontrol should be looked at though.
[WoR] Teza: removing the fear from warlock class, would be like a paladin without immu
minglb: like i said, it is easy to hide behind the most powerful pvp class in the game
minglb: and consider yourself a top player
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Last user question, which is a little off the topic but is the latest game news: What do you guys think of Blizzard removing attunements from Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep?
[Huks]Tiz: I think its a great addition
minglb: it helps people like me to get into gold groups
minglb: eventually
SK|Tarde: yeah, really good, even though I probably won't enter it anyways^^
mek[Cu]: we sold 2200g of attunement scrolls when we heard the news anyway !
Nuvas: Removing the attunements is good fotr the overall community of WoW. It lets more casual players explore the end content of WoW without having to go through that tedium of attuning.
mek[Cu]: but i think it's really stupid
[Wowhead] Skosiris: It's good to know that Blizzard listens to the players.
mek[Cu]: to remove them
mek[Cu]: PvE progress should go in stages, giving access to all this stuff with no effort is a kick in the face for players that put the work in
[WoR] Teza: its not a good thing from my pov, they could have made the attunement easier for both instances
[WoR] Teza: instead of making them free
mek[Cu]: if you can't do the heroics you shouldn't be in those instances
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Okay. As a special request, everyone in the panel can ask their own questions to the group.
minglb: no, it helps hardcore arena players
Nuvas: i agree with you guys, but from blizzards perspective its good for them
mek[Cu]: and if you can't do magtheridon/gruul, you shouldn't be in there either
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Tiz, why don't you go first?
minglb: to buy gear
minglb: for gold
[Wowhead] Skosiris: The attunements were making raid content extremely linear, which is supposedly good but couldnt last long with alts etc.
minglb: from high end guilds
minglb: just like high end guilds can buy gear from arena teams
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: You can pass if you have no questions, of course.
mek[Cu]: well i don't think high end guilds will ever sell gear on a lot of those fights
mek[Cu]: too much of a pain to bring randoms
[Huks]Tiz: Ack, I cant think of anything, give me a second here. ;)
minglb: it just a matter of time before you can beat the encounter with 23
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Okay, we'll come back to you. Skosiris?
minglb: people instead of 25
mek[Cu]: it's not about that
mek[Cu]: it's about that 1 guy wiping you
minglb: he can die and get ressed
mek[Cu]: he can kill everyone else
minglb: and collect loot later
minglb: he can kill himseff
minglb: before it starts
[Wowhead] Skosiris: First of all, what classic dungeon/raid would you like to see get a Heroic mode? And Why?
minglb: Molten Core
minglb: no doubt
mek[Cu]: well i'd never bring anyone in BT/Hyjal and that's where the superior loot is (to tier2 pvp gear)
[WoR] Teza: Naxxramas
mek[Cu]: agree with teza
mek[Cu]: Naxx is the greatest instance ever made
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Deadmines! Also I'm never setting foot into MC again until Rag finally gives up my pants.
SK|Tarde: Deadmines, because it's the coolest instance.
mek[Cu]: buff it up and give that
[Huks]Tiz: Gnomeregan. I like killing gnomes.
[WoR] Teza: definitely the best instance i have experienced so far
Nuvas: I'd never go back to an old instance unless there were major revamps to it.
mek[Cu]: as for non raid i'd have to say scholomance :)
minglb: by the time BT / Hiyal becomes gold groups
Nuvas: every raid instances has been hell to me when i actively particupated in the leadership of Team Ice
minglb: season 3 would be out
mek[Cu]: i'd still rather play naxx than SSC
mek[Cu]: or TK
mek[Cu]: :)
mek[Cu]: BT is the only instance close to it in quality
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Nuvas, do you have a question for the panel?
Nuvas: What are your guy's thoughts on Arena Season 2? Do you think there will be a lot of changes to the current FoTM setups?
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Or anyone else? :)
minglb: there will be a lot of 4DPS teams
minglb: and there will be counters to these teams
SK|Tarde: There will be more 4dps teams.
[WoR] Teza: i got one maybe
minglb: it will be a lot of variety
minglb: far more variety than season 1
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Nuv, I think that Arena teams will always change with the flow of nerfs and buffs.
mek[Cu]: FoTM is FoTM :)
minglb: and yes that too, elizabeth-sama
mek[Cu]: it always changes
minglb: patch
[WoR] Teza: what are your predictions/forecast for this weekend tournament results?
minglb: ultimately blizzard is god
minglb: we are all slaves to the patches
mek[Cu]: Log wins zomg
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Teza's question, woot!
mek[Cu]: im at a lan with mackelina, he's sexy so they will win for sure
SK|Tarde: i think warders, nashwan, Log and feel the pain will be in the top 4
SK|Tarde: can't decide on in which order though^^
mek[Cu]: ye tarde
mek[Cu]: if i had to put money on it, i'd say feel the pain tho
SK|Tarde: i wouldn't^^
mek[Cu]: just sux that they didn't copy the chars over now
SK|Tarde: indeed
mek[Cu]: cause all our guys got 365 epic shadow res gear
mek[Cu]: cya !
SK|Tarde: haha
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: I honestly am not up on Arena rankings enough that I can make accurate predictions. Also, mek, owwwww.
Nuvas: current copies right now would compromise the gear equality
mek[Cu]: yeah
Nuvas: so many warriors with tier 3 weapons now
SK|Tarde: yeah
mek[Cu]: i think ull see teams with a big advantage tho in the next season
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Okay, does anyone else from the panel have a question? I think Sko had one more, but anyone else?
SK|Tarde: but old gear with new patch is also bad
SK|Tarde: i have one
mek[Cu]: with access to PvE loot like our guys
mek[Cu]: some insane stuff
mek[Cu]: from BT and Hyjal
mek[Cu]: the spell haste gear for example could be really influential
mek[Cu]: i know azzper already has a LOT of spell haste
SK|Tarde: yeah, that is kinda bad
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Tarde, your question?
SK|Tarde: ok
SK|Tarde: What do you think about adding t3 weapons before season 2?
Nuvas: terrible idea
[Wowhead] Skosiris: What do you mean by "adding them before season 2" ?
mek[Cu]: i think PvE gear having an influence on PvP is a bad idea
mek[Cu]: but something that will help my guild a lot so it's fine !
SK|Tarde: well, they are available
mek[Cu]: :)
SK|Tarde: you can have t3 weapon atm but not s2 weapons
mek[Cu]: in theory they have always been available tho
mek[Cu]: just the vashj cockblock that stopped it
SK|Tarde: ok
mek[Cu]: if u had been insanely lucky u could have got a t3 weapon from trash drops
mek[Cu]: but we got 1 vortex ever b4 2.1 for prophet i think
mek[Cu]: from trash
mek[Cu]: but i mean u can get 130 dps weapons from BT so ...
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Anyone else have questions ... Ming, Sko, Mek, Tiz? Last chance.
[Huks]Tiz: Yeah id like to see them separate the PVE and PVP parts of the game as much possible.
minglb: I have a question, what do you guys think is the best 3v3 combo? In WSVG China, 90% of the players never played TBC before. But this weekend's WSVG Lousiville every team will be very experienced. Will warrior/mage/paladin still win?
[Huks]Tiz: Nah i dont have any
mek[Cu]: well they tried to do it with resilience
SK|Tarde: I think warrior/mage/priest could do well too.
mek[Cu]: there's a few nice ones
mek[Cu]: priest,rogue,mage is cool also
[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Ok, Please thank our special guests for the Debate Club on WoW Classes. Look for the transcripts on the debate club page. And check out the rest of the events for the Stride Xfire Cup 2007 Finals Festival! www.xfire.com/stride
IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KEEP DEBATING FEEL FREE TO STAY! =oD
[Huks]Tiz: I think 3v3 is just too dang class dependent. Eventually its going to be the teams playing multiple classes extremely well that are going to win
mek[Cu]: 100% agree with tiz
mek[Cu]: 5v5 ftw
SK|Tarde: agreed
SK|Tarde: 5vs5 has always been the best bracket, since release
mek[Cu]: how come you did the debate instead of zeksy btw man ?
SK|Tarde: his connection died
mek[Cu]: ah oki
SK|Tarde: might make us miss the netherdrake^^
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: One last question from Sko: "What do you guys use, Thottbot, Allakhazam or Wowhead?"
mek[Cu]: nah man
SK|Tarde: all 3
Nuvas: wowhead
mek[Cu]: top 0.5% get it ?
mek[Cu]: that's a lot of teams
Nuvas: with thott everynow and then
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Wowhead for info, Thottbot for pictures.
[Huks]Tiz: Thott and Wowhead. Allakhazam was always so slow for some reason.
Nuvas: btw, netherdrakes are unique :(
SK|Tarde: been some rumours that blizzard lied about 0.5%
mek[Cu]: Log finished on 2450 anyway, watched their games today
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: I could never remember how to spell Allakhazam at the clutch moment
SK|Tarde: if it's 0.5% we should get a drake
[Wowhead] Skosiris: We`re really catching up Thottbot as far as screenshots goes.
[Wowhead] Skosiris: I think we even have more than they have now
[WoR] Teza: i have been a great fan of Allakhazam since EQ until Wowhead poppped
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Heh. It's a thin line between question and promotion opportunity :)
Nuvas: allakhazam was THE EQ site
[WoR] Teza: also the only one
mek[Cu]: ure 11th atm tarde ? wsf ? :>
Nuvas: true, lol
mek[Cu]: but skrosiris damn
mek[Cu]: what was that nihilum stuff on your site
SK|Tarde: we played some 3pointers and lost some bad games and got discs
mek[Cu]: that was soo gay :)
Nuvas: alright guys, im outta here!
[Wowhead] Skosiris: mek: What stuff?
mek[Cu]: the thing u had about nihilum's progress
mek[Cu]: i just thought it was funny :)
[Huks]Tiz: Nice talking with you guys, have a good night. Hope to see you in Anaheim!
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Just a reminder, the debate is officially over, although the arguments may continue into the night.
SK|Tarde: yeah, hope so too tiz
mek[Cu]: and i wondered what caused you to do it
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: What about Nih's progress, Sko?
mek[Cu]: it was just a thing they had on their site about "gratz to nihilum on their amazing progress"
mek[Cu]: and i just didn't understand why you put that on a database site
[Wowhead] Skosiris: oh hehe, they just had us plug their recent progress. Just some way to thank them for sending us their WDBs full of "world first" items I guess :)
mek[Cu]: and i thought it was somewhat disrespectful to the other 3-4 top teams putting in the effort also
mek[Cu]: well if you want all top guilds to support you with their new items, you shouldn't favor just one team
mek[Cu]: at least not to that level
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Yeah, a lot of people complained about this frontpage promotion for 1 select guild. It shall not happen again
mek[Cu]: okidoki
mek[Cu]: love your site tho, my favourite database site by far
mek[Cu]: goodnight guys im off :) was fun
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Cool :D
[Xfire] mbg: THANKS TO EVERYONE!
SK|Tarde: cya
mek[Cu]: and good luck tarde
mek[Cu]: in germany :)
SK|Tarde: ty
mek[Cu]: great to see lots of stormscale guys going :)
[Wowhead] Skosiris: Gotta go too (dinner time). See you later everyone, this was a very entertaining debate.
[Xfire] mbg: Transcripts coming out tomorrow!
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Once again, thanks for everyone for coming/
SK|Tarde: stormscale is the best
mek[Cu]: nashwan is mainly ex mannel guys
[WoR] Teza: heh yeah was fun seing old faces
[WoW Insider] ewachowski: And we'll see you again later!
SK|Tarde: yeah, they are
[WoR] Teza: i do miss Stormscale tbh
SK|Tarde: i miss ganking curse on their way to raids=(
SK|Tarde: and trying to destroy the AQ-event
[WoR] Teza: like you could
[WoR] Teza: laggy event ftw
SK|Tarde: =)
SK|Tarde: yeah
SK|Tarde: got so many mean privs after that
[WoR] Teza: what is the horde top guild on Stormscale now?
SK|Tarde: in pve or pvp?
SK|Tarde: actually, i don't know anything about either^^
SK|Tarde: they are switching guilds every day
[WoR] Teza: k
SK|Tarde: CT disbanded and since then there has only been chaos
SK|Tarde: im off
SK|Tarde: cya!