The Two-Handed Sword
{Return to the Xfire Debate Club Main Page}

Xfire Debate Club 6th Meeting: WoW Classes
June 19th, 2007 (Main Floor Transcript)



[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Hello! We are very pleased to welcome everyone to the 6th Xfire Debate Club! The topic of today’s debate is: The World of Warcraft Classes! Please welcome our special guests from who will now introduce themselves and start taking your questions!

 

This is the first event in the Ridiculously Long Lasting Stride Xfire Cup 2007 Finals Festival. Check out more at: www.xfire.com/stride!

[Xfire] mbg: remember no spam in open debate room or you will be muted

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Hi, I'm Elizabeth Wachowski from WoW Insider. I've been invited to moderate this debate. I play a rogue and a paladin on the U.S. Magtheridon server.

mek[Cu]: Hi im Phil/Mek I'm one of the guild masters and raid leader of Curse Guild on Vek'nilash EU, im playing Shaman

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Hello! I'm Skosiris from Wowhead.com. I play a warlock and a mage on the Mug'Thol realm (US)

[WoR] Teza: Hello everyone, i am Maxime "Teza" Perignon from Worldofraids. I am currently playing on Vek'nilash EU, playing a rogue in Curse

SK|Tarde: Hello, I'm Tarde, a mage in Warders. We play on Stormscale EU and will play in the EU Regionals this weekend.

mek[Cu]: The world's fattest gnome :(

[WoR] Teza: true

SK|Tarde: That's me=)

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Aww, cute. But only if you have pigtails.

mek[Cu]: 3 from the original Stormscale EU server, fun !

[WoR] Teza: indeed

[Huks]Tiz: Hi my name is Tiz. I am and Orc warlock from the Rampage battlegroup and play on the Huk5's Arena team. We recently placed first in Blizzard's NA regionals.

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: We're also expecting the rogue Ming at ... some point.

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Thanks for coming to the debate tonight, guys. First off, I'll ask the question that's the title of the debate: What are the best and worst classes in WoW right now, from your perspective?

mek[Cu]: Are we talking from PvP or PvE ?

SK|Tarde: From my point of view, warrior and paladin are the best classes and rogue is the worst.

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Either/or, whichever you feel most inclined to comment on :)

[WoR] Teza: all classes got their min and plus depending on encounters (pve) or setup (pvp), although some classes have advantages in patches

mek[Cu]: From a PvP perspective I would have to agree with Tarde

[Huks]Tiz: All classes have their ups and downs, but if I was to pin which one I thought was the most overpowered in competitive pvp, i would pick warrior.

mek[Cu]: and tbh in PvE it's pretty much the same

Nuvas: From a 5v5 perspective, I see Warrior as the strongest class. Closely followed by Paladin.

Nuvas: worst in 5v5 would probably go to Rogue.

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Mek and Tarde, t least three of us here tonight play rogues, and rogues are often the target of complaints about PVP and class balance from both sides. With a class that can "come out of nowhere", stunlock you, and use an ability to remove caster dots and confer magic immunities, a lot of people seem to find the rogue style of PVP unfair. But the new trinkets will be able to break Sap and Blind, and Resilience puts a hurt on many crit-dependent rogues in Arena. Why do you think rogues are underwhelming?

[WoR] Teza: i do agree for the paladin, if you take a look at stats on class repartition in pvp groups

mek[Cu]: Rogues only really work in 4 dps teams imo

[Huks]Tiz: The real problem with rogues is warriors. They do everything a rogue can do better, and are just far more dangerous with support.

[Wowhead] Skosiris: I don't think there's no such thing as the "best class", all classes are enjoyable! However, there definitely are classes that are a bit weaker than the others. It also varies depending on the talents spec.

mek[Cu]: they can take one caster out of play and so some decent dps on him

[Huks]Tiz: Put a warrior on a rogue, and suddenly the rogue is in deep dirt.

mek[Cu]: agree

mek[Cu]: but look at a team like Feel the Pain

mek[Cu]: there rogue really works very very well

mek[Cu]: because they are a 4 dps setup

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Are certain classes and specs just more suited for play in an arena setting than others?

mek[Cu]: the rogue removes 1 dps'er from them

SK|Tarde: Rogues do well the first 30 seconds of a 5vs5, but after that a warrior will always be better.

Nuvas: 4 dps setups generally don't work though.

mek[Cu]: allowing them to play with 1 healer ?

mek[Cu]: sure they do

mek[Cu]: once again, look at Feel the Pain

[Huks]Tiz: potentially removes. You will have a hard time convincing me you cant counter that.

mek[Cu]: who are easy favourites for the EU qualifiers

Nuvas: the US regionals was littered with 4 dps setups, and we did exceptionally well against them.

[WoR] Teza: i would say rogues are more gear dependant than any other classes to be effective in pvp

mek[Cu]: 2 affliction warlocks, shadow priest, rogue, pala

mek[Cu]: i agree a lot of 4 dps setups don't work

mek[Cu]: this one does

mek[Cu]: they are completely unaffected by resilience

mek[Cu]: or well almost

Nuvas: 4 dps setups have very little versatility in their strategies however.

SK|Tarde: yeah, that is a big advantage

[Wowhead] Skosiris: There definetly are better specs and class combos for arenas, especially in 2v2, but it's really up to the classes and builds of the opponents you are facing

mek[Cu]: well im sure Tarde has played against feel the pain

SK|Tarde: we have, and it was a nice setup for us to play against

SK|Tarde: we usually survived the burst and outlasted them

[Huks]Tiz: I personally think any setup that entirely relies on getting a quick killl is not going to be the best way to go. Certainly it can be made to work, but it lacks the versatility of a balanced team.

mek[Cu]: were u playing with dosferra as enhancement or elemental ?

SK|Tarde: but with the addition of arena water im not sure what will happen

SK|Tarde: enhance

SK|Tarde: enhancement shamans are much better vs feel the pain

mek[Cu]: yup

[Huks]Tiz: Clann Hexx ran a great 4dps setup, but if you threw in plenty of healing and a good defense, its counterable.

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Along those lines, for those of you who are arena players, what sort of combinations are most feared by your team?

SK|Tarde: and those kinds of setups

mek[Cu]: you need heavy melee dps and good CC to beat a team like that

Nuvas: disagree completely

SK|Tarde: mostly feared for me is the EU flavour of the month, mage/pala/ele shaman/priest/warrior

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Ming !

Nuvas: melee dps requires you to be in next to the target, which means that you can leave your healers very easily

Nuvas: healer range, that is

SK|Tarde: on the other hand melee dps isnt mitigated that much by the warlocks

SK|Tarde: such as curse of tongues

mek[Cu]: exactly

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Ming, we're talking about which classes work best in an arena setting

[Huks]Tiz: No, but they are much more vulnerable to snare effects obviously. Not everyone can have a freedom.

mek[Cu]: well we're talking about 4 dps teams

mek[Cu]: like the feel the pain setup

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Warlock/Paladin and Warlock/Priest are the most painful combos I face

minglb: arigato

Nuvas: curse of weakness + fear works perfectly fine against melee dps

Nuvas: of course, warriors are much more difficult to fear

SK|Tarde: we feel that melee shaman is better vs 4dps, as long as it isn't 4 melees

mek[Cu]: but dosferra is elemental now right ?

SK|Tarde: the only reason we had to switch to elemental shaman was hunter teams

mek[Cu]: what caused you to switch that ?

mek[Cu]: ok

minglb: This is Ming from worldofming.com, sorry I am late, had to finish something at the office

Nuvas: hunters are fairly common in 5s

SK|Tarde: with the migration to our battlegroup alot of hunter teams came here and made dosferra stand in traps all day

mek[Cu]: well i also agree that the strongest setup is the EU FotM :P

mek[Cu]: pala/war/e. shaman/h. priest/mage

mek[Cu]: switching in a lock for the mage is also nice with the new water

SK|Tarde: as far as I have seen it's the best overall setup

SK|Tarde: indeed

mek[Cu]: let's talk about pve imo !

minglb: it is because all the classes listed have huge buffs for eachother

mek[Cu]: ;D

[Huks]Tiz: I cant really comment on that spec being as I dont think anyone on the US has had any success at all.

minglb: druid have fairly weak buffs

minglb: rogue has none

Nuvas: there are no sucessful enhancement shaman in the US.

SK|Tarde: it's very rare with enhance shamans

mek[Cu]: i think you will find that EU teams perform significantly better than US teams

mek[Cu]: the top ones that is

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: There are a lot of class abilities that get complaints in PVP -- Cloak of Shadows, Cyclone, and Mortal Strike among them. Do you think that there are any really make-or-break Arena abilities?

[Huks]Tiz: I doubt it, but we will see.

Nuvas: We will find out come Blizzcon.

mek[Cu]: and im not turning this into and EUvsUS debate, I just think the level is higher due to more players and more playtime

Nuvas: but iI don't see what you're basing that off of.

SK|Tarde: Mortal Strike is for sure

SK|Tarde: Cyclone will be less game-breaking with the trinket-change

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Yeah, MS is probably the msot make-or-break ability

mek[Cu]: im basing it on pretty much every competitive game there has every beat Nuvas

minglb: I believe the current PVP system is extremely outdated, a lot of abilities stayed same since the beginning which shouldn't be the case

mek[Cu]: &been

mek[Cu]: *

[Wowhead] Skosiris: However, as I'm playing two caster classes, I admit that cloak of shadows is a real pain.

mek[Cu]: rogues are already underpowered in 5v5 in most setups

minglb: cloak of shadows is a joke at heavy weight range

mek[Cu]: i don't believe that CoS is overpowered at all

minglb: rogue is extremely underpowered 1v1 as well

mek[Cu]: (in that setting)

minglb: every single class geared/specced for 1v1 can defeat a rogue with ease

mek[Cu]: i don't really consider 1v1 balance relevant

[Huks]Tiz: I dont really care about 1v1 though.

mek[Cu]: it's not a 1v1 game

[WoR] Teza: wont say every single class

minglb: 1v1 weakness leaks over to 5v5 weakness

Nuvas: Well, Mek, I can see your logic on that, however there hasn't been a competetive MMO until now. At any rate though, continuing that this topic would be moot.

minglb: you can get on PTR I will find someone

minglb: that beat you with whatever class of your choice

mek[Cu]: ye nuvas

minglb: a lot of people say warriors are weak 1v1, it is not true at all

minglb: they beat quite a few classes/specs, especially with 2.1.2 trinkets

mek[Cu]: but 1v1 is not important :)

SK|Tarde: back to the topic, i feel that MS and blessing of freedom is the best abilities in the game right now.

mek[Cu]: and cyclone, but again, the trinket etc..

[Huks]Tiz: Honestly, i think rogues would be fine if warriors werent such an overpowering version of them.

[WoR] Teza: with the latest trinket changes

[WoR] Teza: o agree with tarde

minglb: they are the best because they remained the same since beginning

mek[Cu]: oomkins are the most underated 5v5 class atm

mek[Cu]: !

Nuvas: I'd say mortal strike is far more powerful than blessing of freedom.

SK|Tarde: they are underrated but not that good either

minglb: I am 100% sure they will be re-worked

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: About the trinket changes -- which classes will be hurt the most by those? Will the new trinkets lead to a major revamp in PVP strategy?

SK|Tarde: rogues and druids will be hurt most

mek[Cu]: druid

Nuvas: there is very little strategy to using mortal strike, it can jsut be spammed and be very effective.

minglb: the trinket changes hurt classes relying on CCs most

mek[Cu]: the fact that there was nothing to remove cyclone was ...

minglb: and for classes that have very little CC's to begin with

minglb: shamans, warriors

minglb: it is a god send for them

[Huks]Tiz: Trinket just gives people another option to not be completely screwed by a couple class abilities. Its a bigger issue in 2's and 3's matches then anything

mek[Cu]: the trinket adresses this but it's a massive nurf to druids in 5v5

[Huks]Tiz: and the only balance I really care about is 5's

[Huks]Tiz: where it will be far more insignificant

minglb: I believe 3v3 has greater potential to bring in audience and $$$ for the game

minglb: but that is just me

SK|Tarde: it's a pretty big buff for shamans

mek[Cu]: i agree it's not massive in 5v5 but it makes u even less likely to bring certain already underused classes

minglb: so far I have not seen a single truly entertaining 5v5 video

Nuvas: yeah, the relative signifigance of the trinket change will have little impact in 5s.

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: So to sum up, what do you guys consider the biggest balance issues in WoW PVP right now?

[WoR] Teza: well none would like to risk a loss because of frpasing

mek[Cu]: 3v3 is too affected by setup

mek[Cu]: imo

minglb: scrub friendly classes like warrior/warlock need to be nerfed

mek[Cu]: making to top players less likely to play it

minglb: that is the biggest issue

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Can you expand on that, Ming?

SK|Tarde: warriors are overpowered

mek[Cu]: *the

[Huks]Tiz: Warrior MS being on too short of a cooldown, and being able to be kept up virtually indefinitely.

[Huks]Tiz: Its overpowered, and has been since release.

Nuvas: Single most overpowered ability I have found in 5s is the warrior Mace Spec talent.

mek[Cu]: i seriously doubt MS will ever be nurfed

minglb: pre-TBC, warrior could either have damage from shaman

minglb: or anti-kiting from paladin

minglb: now

minglb: they have both

minglb: there is no reason not to get both

Nuvas: a warrior with a storm herald can stunlock and do more damage than a rogue.

minglb: so every 5v5 team starts with a warrior/shaman/paladin core

minglb: the abilities of shaman and paladin makes warrior way, way too strong

minglb: I believe abilities like windfury and blessing of freedom should be limited to the host class themselves

[Huks]Tiz: No, thats stupid. ;P

minglb: windfury is another retarded mechanic that hasn't been changed for a very long time

mek[Cu]: no :)

mek[Cu]: removing the windfury totem is never ever going to happen

minglb: blessing of freedom only self castable will also give retribution paladins playing time in arena

minglb: and will go a long way resolving the warrior imbalance

Nuvas: thats would far from fix ret paladins in arena

mek[Cu]: the flipside is that

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Ming, you brought up a good opportunity for a segue there

mek[Cu]: a warrior without blessing of freedom

mek[Cu]: is fairly week imo

minglb: they still have 15 second intercept

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Paladins are widely acknowledged as being extremely strong healers in both facets of the game, but many paladins believe that Retribution spec should also have a place in raid groups and arena teams. Do you think that Ret can ever be made viable in end-game, and should it even be viable?

minglb: they are not all that kiteable

minglb: they are not very kiteable

minglb: retribution can be very effective

SK|Tarde: I don't think it will be viable.

Nuvas: warriors are very easy to kite with the right abilities

[Huks]Tiz: Not in arenas.

minglb: if warrior gets nerfed

mek[Cu]: agree with nuvas

[WoR] Teza: not viable in pve at least

minglb: it is not because retribution is worthless

minglb: it is because warrior is superior in every way

Nuvas: a 1 second polymorph, root, nova etc will start the kite

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Every single spec *should* be viable in end-game.

[Wowhead] Skosiris: There is a lot of work to do before this can happen.

[Huks]Tiz: Unless a Ret paladin had MS, he would just be a subpar warrior, and its unlikely his damage would ever compare.

mek[Cu]: retri is completely useless in PvE and I would never bring one to a raid in their current state

mek[Cu]: they don't do enough dps

minglb: it is very easy for someone like tiz to sit on the most powerful 1v1 2v2 3v3 and one of the best 5v5 classes

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Sko, Teza, Mek: Is there anything you could think of that would make Ret better in PVE raiding?

[Huks]Tiz: Yes ming, because I dont play other classes

mek[Cu]: they need to do more dps :)

minglb: warlock/felguard is extremely scrub friendly

[WoR] Teza: give them a unique ability that would weaken the boss :x?

[Huks]Tiz: Which is why there are so many successful 5v5 felguard locks Ming

[Huks]Tiz: whats your arena success like?

Nuvas: Ming, thats a pretty ignorant statement.

minglb: #1 3v3 in my battlegroup

minglb: i am sure i would do better with a stronger class

minglb: in 5v5

minglb: like i said

[Huks]Tiz: Easy to say, hard to prove.

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Elizabeth: I have never played a paladin myself to be honest, but what I've seen mostly are aggro problems and not scaling that well with gear compared with other classes

minglb: i don't have to prove it

mek[Cu]: there's no aggro problems

mek[Cu]: they don't do enough dps to have aggro problems

minglb: ultimately I will be on the promotion side of things

minglb: people like you would one day be working for me

Nuvas: Ming, get off your high horse.

mek[Cu]: but more stuff will always be added

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Well said, ming.

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: By far, the class that's had the most arguments about being underpowered in PVE recently is the shaman. They feel that they don't have a defined role in endgame and cannot DPS or heal as well as other classes. Do you think the shaman complaints are valid? Does the class need fixing?

mek[Cu]: and it will always bring more "casual" publicity

[WoR] Teza: thats for mek

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: It's for everyone, really

mek[Cu]: underpowered in PvE ?

Nuvas: Shaman certainly have less avalible slots in PvE, so their overall demand is much less than other classes.

[WoR] Teza: he never complained so far

[Huks]Tiz: I have alot of respect for the guys whom have already cleared it. Keeping a raiding guild in top shape is no easy feat.

mek[Cu]: i play a Resto Shaman

mek[Cu]: it's not underpowered

mek[Cu]: at all

mek[Cu]: in PvE

Nuvas: however, shaman do perfectly fine in PvE.

[Wowhead] Skosiris: From what I've gathered, Shaman can be awesome at healing in end-game raids because of the incredible scaling power of Healing Wave

mek[Cu]: it's the best AoE healer, they give insane party buffs, bloodlust ...

mek[Cu]: in Curse im bringing 3 shamans to every boss

Nuvas: there is room for all specs of shaman, there are just more slots for resto shaman

mek[Cu]: all resto

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: What do you think about the totem system? Does it deserve a revamp?

mek[Cu]: it's a tricky one

Nuvas: difficult to say

mek[Cu]: in PvE it's fine

[WoR] Teza: dodgy even

mek[Cu]: just aslong as you don't have bugs like the spiders in Hyjal killing them

mek[Cu]: in PvP

mek[Cu]: u could give them more hp i guess

mek[Cu]: but it would probably become overpowered

Nuvas: well

[Wowhead] Skosiris: What's there to change about totems really? Since shaman are in both factions, there is no real imbalance and comparison possible. Totems are fine.

mek[Cu]: but in PvE it's second only to the Paladin and it's very close

SK|Tarde: Windfury Totem shouldn't be a 10sec buff

mek[Cu]: yeah i guess i agree with skosiris there

[Huks]Tiz: Yeah I agree SK.

SK|Tarde: It should be removed instantly when the totem is killed

mek[Cu]: hmm yeah i agree tarde

mek[Cu]: sometimes grounding can absorb more than one spell

mek[Cu]: that should also be fixed

Nuvas: i actually prefer the 10 second buff

minglb: shaman is already top tier in 1v1, 3v3, and 5v5

Nuvas: it allows for totem juggling from shaman.

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: All in all, do you think hybrid classes have more or less utility after BC, both in raiding and Arena?

SK|Tarde: it makes it almost worthless to kill wf totems

mek[Cu]: i don't understand why u put any weight on 1v1 or 3v3, i really don't

minglb: because WSVG is here to stay

minglb: and 5v5 isn't the only bracket with prizes

Nuvas: totems can cost a significant amount of mana, though, Tarde.

SK|Tarde: hybrid classes are about as good in PvP I guess

mek[Cu]: prizes are the only reason that good players will play in that tho

minglb: in fact WSVG pulled in 80,000 people in China

SK|Tarde: although the pvp changed alot in tbc

Nuvas: 99% of the shaman out there drop Windfury rank 5, which costs over 300 mana a pop.

minglb: 5v5 has counter teams too

minglb: don't pretend it doesn't exist

SK|Tarde: yeah, I still shoot them down

minglb: and 3v3 is far more entertaining to watch

mek[Cu]: they have way way more utility ewachowski

mek[Cu]: especially the druid

[Huks]Tiz: A counter in 5v5 is much more difficult then in 3v3. This game is balanced much better in 5's.

[Huks]Tiz: By a large margin.

SK|Tarde: agreed

Nuvas: yep

mek[Cu]: feral druids have become an essential class in PvE

minglb: not if you play rogue

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Can you expand on that, Mek?

mek[Cu]: well i remember when we started TBC PvE

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Well, thinking about shadowpriests and feral druids as far as off specs go, there has been a huge improvement here. These two specs used to be a no-no for any raids.

mek[Cu]: we always used only warrior tanks

mek[Cu]: as with naxx

mek[Cu]: but the feral druid now give better aggro generation

mek[Cu]: better AoE aggro control

minglb: ultimately the "top players" need to realize they are entertainers before serious competitors, once people start to get that mentality we will make it mainstream

mek[Cu]: and they do LOADS more dps while tanking

minglb: the 5v5 matches are extremely boring to watch

minglb: perhaps 4DPS vs 4DPS will change that

mek[Cu]: so we started bringing them and have never looked back

[Huks]Tiz: I disagree completely

[WoR] Teza: true skosiris, now they became quite wanted in end game raiding

mek[Cu]: and usually use 1-2 on each raid

[Huks]Tiz: And so would the people at the regionals

[Huks]Tiz: It was a very fun feel there.

[WoR] Teza: i see that everyday in recruitment posts

[Huks]Tiz: People int he audience whom hadnt even played wow more then casually were enjoying it.

Nuvas: the lack of mainstream entertainment of WoW is due to the fact that WoW is a complex game.

SK|Tarde: I think 5vs5 is really fun to watch, just have to make it more spectator friendly

mek[Cu]: Well with S.Priests they were overpowered before

[Huks]Tiz: I know because unlike you, I was there and talked with them.

mek[Cu]: now they are nice

mek[Cu]: 2 in a raid is perfect

mek[Cu]: on most bosses

mek[Cu]: and i agree with targe again

mek[Cu]: tarde

mek[Cu]: 5v5 is great to watch

[WoR] Teza: would be nice to have a spectator mode like in most of RTS

mek[Cu]: yeah that would be nice

Nuvas: a big thing about watching 5v5s is having the right camera angles

[Huks]Tiz: For sure Teza

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Along those lines, should "pure" classes like warriors and priests be the best choice for tanking/healing respectively in raids, or should hybrids be equal?

mek[Cu]: i'd watch 5v5 over 3v3 any day

[Huks]Tiz: I really hope Blizzard can work out the kinks with the broadcasting.

[Huks]Tiz: Their current system was already far better then Wuhan though.

mek[Cu]: it's less setup dependent, longer games and these things make it more entertaining

minglb: how is that possible? unlike basketball / hockey you don't have a "ball" to keep the eyes on

mek[Cu]: and because it's a better format it will always attract better players

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Hasnt there been some blizzard post about spectator mode?

minglb: things are far more messy in 5v5's

mek[Cu]: well u could have the same as FPS

minglb: most people won't be able to tell what is going on

[WoR] Teza: *in the works* skosiris

mek[Cu]: a roaming cam

mek[Cu]: + switching pov

mek[Cu]: in either case it's going to be superior in 5v5 ... not 3v3

[Huks]Tiz: Wait until Blizzcon before you make blanket statements you are probably wrong about IMO Ming.

[Huks]Tiz: If they can figure a way to create easy prompts to pick up on key things that happen in the battles itd be alot more fun

Nuvas: "Pure" classes should never have their primary role taken away from them. However, there can be specialized encounters that allow hybrids to tank as well or better.

[WoR] Teza: about last subject, hybrids shouldnt be equal to pure classes

[Huks]Tiz: Things like well placed counterspells, stuns, missed excecutes or whatever.

mek[Cu]: it's like leotheras

minglb: once in a year tournament isn't enough, there is room for both 5v5 and 3v3

mek[Cu]: the druids could kill their demons

minglb: and your scrub class in top tier in both

mek[Cu]: making them great OT's on that fight

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Elizabeth: Hybrids currently are not real hybrids. The need of different gear sets and specs kills the point of "being able to do everything, not as well as other classes".

mek[Cu]: it's the same with swipe on many other fights

minglb: let's just say we have a totally different view on how WOW should be marketed, ultimately our effort will create a bigger pie for both sides

mek[Cu]: try and focus on the questions a bit more tbh ming

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Okay, we're starting to take some questions from users now. At the end of the debate, I'll also invite the special guest panelists to ask a question of the other quests

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Cruelcodex: ***Question) There is a common issue that warriors become overgeared and extremely ineffective in PVE. An example is a warrior with T4/T5 entering a heroic as a Tank. The warrior has such good gear that he cant generate the amount of rage to hold agro against equally geared dps classes. Why should warriors have to take off their hard earned gear to do better?

mek[Cu]: i guess this is mine since it's PvE

minglb: maybe the warrior needs to L2P?

mek[Cu]: gear progression is always going to be tailored towards future encounters

mek[Cu]: doing lower instances u sometimes need to lower your gear to get more rage

mek[Cu]: ming this happens all the time

Nuvas: very common issue

Nuvas: more ignorance from ming

mek[Cu]: our MT has soo much avoidance if he does heroic he will get almost no rage

SK|Tarde: Even I have seen it!

mek[Cu]: so no aggro

minglb: strip some of yoru gear with greens?

mek[Cu]: u just gotta lower your gear a bit, there's no way around it

mek[Cu]: or chill with the dps :)

[Huks]Tiz: Chill with dps? Are you insane?!

mek[Cu]: hehe

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: [HeroesforHire]Muffeevee: Question: If you could remove, or replace any class what would it be and what would you change it for?

SK|Tarde: Or just make a mage kite-tank all the trash.

mek[Cu]: anyway if you are doing heroics

mek[Cu]: i'd reccoment a druid

Nuvas: its just silly that upgrades make it harder to hold aggro against softer hitting mobs

mek[Cu]: goes very fast !

mek[Cu]: bah nuvas there's no real way around it

Nuvas: yeah, unfortunately.

mek[Cu]: i'd remove hunters because they get no repair costs

mek[Cu]: :)

[WoR] Teza: hunters yeah

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: I was actually going to ask about hunter DPS earlier.

SK|Tarde: Hunters indeed=)

mek[Cu]: hunter dps is now fantastic

mek[Cu]: if they can keep their pet alive

mek[Cu]: otherwise it's not good

[Huks]Tiz: Id say hunters, just because I hate fighting against teams with good ones. ;)

mek[Cu]: beastmaster is the only really high dps spec they have

[Wowhead] Skosiris: "The first changes I would be implementing is the removal of the Hunter class and the addition of the Pandaren as a playable race."

mek[Cu]: give pandaren :)

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Come on, you know they'll never have Pandaren because then everyone would join that faction :)

SK|Tarde: Hunters forces us to use elemental shaman.

mek[Cu]: anyway a hunter with 41/20/0 or 42/19/0

mek[Cu]: can easily top the dps on any fight where the pet can dps and stay alive

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Along those lines, Alex|koogco: do you have any suggestions for one or two new classes in the next wow expansion? or have blizzard already reached the point where making more classes would just be mixtures of the old ones anyway?

[Huks]Tiz: Pandaren Warlock. The end of wow as we know it.

Nuvas: I'd prefer Blizzard to release Hero Classes before thinking off adding new classes!

mek[Cu]: agree with nuvas

minglb: paladin should be death knights

mek[Cu]: more specialisation would be cool

[Wowhead] Skosiris: There are so many classes ideas that could be implemented! For instance, Necromancers would be a cool addition =)

mek[Cu]: but we don't really need more classes

minglb: I think next expansion will be based on arthas

mek[Cu]: i'd like my shaman to be able to be a shadow hunter for example

SK|Tarde: Spellbreaker could be cool.

minglb: yeah would be amazing

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Vince (i2xa): What do you believe is the best combination for a 2vs2 arena team?

[WoR] Teza: would need more talents to offer large panel of playstyle

minglb: warlock/paladin

minglb: with soulink + curse of exhaution

minglb: has almost no counters

minglb: at equal gear

[Wowhead] Skosiris: *agrees with Ming*

minglb: at least i can't think of any

minglb: they out mana you

[Wowhead] Skosiris: a Warlock/Priest combo is very powerful as well

Nuvas: lock/paladin is definately one of the strongest combos.

minglb: paladin gives more options

[Huks]Tiz: It is a pretty nasty 2v2 combo right now, especially the aff/dem ones.

minglb: freedom kite against rogues

minglb: lock/priest loses to rogue/priest imo

minglb: but lock /paladin beats rogue/paladin

[WoR] Teza: well paladin is the fotm class in any setup

minglb: for that combo

minglb: lock/paladin beats rogue/priest too if the lock is specced properly

minglb: curse of exhuation kiting

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Omen: Question: Do you think the game has too many anti cc abilities? And why do you suppose they even implemented cc if all they want to do is take it away?

minglb: As a CC class, absolutely

mek[Cu]: because it adds a skill/timing element i guess

minglb: between trinkets, stun resist

SK|Tarde: For 5vs5, there is not too many anti-cc abilities imo.

Nuvas: in the 5v5 scene, there isn't enough anti CC at all to counter all the CC being thrown around.

[Huks]Tiz: I dont have a complaint with the general anti CC in the game. It adds versatility.

minglb: CC is different value for different classes

SK|Tarde: Just cast poly again=)

SK|Tarde: indeed.

minglb: when you play a warlock that can tank me without ever having to fear

minglb: you don't need ccs

[Huks]Tiz: The only anti-CC that really bothers me is amount of counters against fear, especially from warriors. Sucks to have your only defense mitigated for nearly a minute.

minglb: you just straight up dps me

minglb: and i lose

[Wowhead] Skosiris: CC is just fine in PvE, it's not too balanced in PvP though

[Huks]Tiz: Again, 1v1 means nothing.

minglb: as a rogue

mek[Cu]: try playing a shaman more if u wanna talk about countering fear :)

minglb: cc is our bread and butter

mek[Cu]: (and don't even mention tremor)

minglb: when you play a class

minglb: that has ZERO buff for others

minglb: you must be the strongest 1v1 class in the game

minglb: to be viable in 5v5

[Huks]Tiz: Tremor is poor against warlocks in 1v1, but superb in 5v5.

[Wowhead] Skosiris: You can't just remove it without breaking a lot of PvE content..

minglb: every class is poor against warlocks in 1v1

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: JediMan: id like to know their opinion on warlocks and chain fearing, is it overpowered, or is it necessary as a warlocks only means of defense?

[Huks]Tiz: Fearing when combined with dots is absolutely overpowered in 1v1 against alot of classes.

[Huks]Tiz: I would LOVE if they made fear harder to break, but damage broke it far easier.

Nuvas: even with the supposed nerf

minglb: fear is not the problem

minglb: the problem is the durability of the class

SK|Tarde: Chain fearing is kinda annoying in 5vs5, especially with lot's of AoE fears.

[Huks]Tiz: Ming, no other class has as few escape options. Stop please.

Nuvas: warlocks have no get away abilities, however. and they still take a lot of damage.

minglb: oh you have escape options if you choose to

minglb: coil

minglb: instant AOE fear

Nuvas: even with soul link, in 3v3 and 5v5, the pet gets heals

SK|Tarde: UA+Fear and UA+mindcontrol should be looked at though.

[WoR] Teza: removing the fear from warlock class, would be like a paladin without immu

minglb: like i said, it is easy to hide behind the most powerful pvp class in the game

minglb: and consider yourself a top player

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Last user question, which is a little off the topic but is the latest game news: What do you guys think of Blizzard removing attunements from Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep?

[Huks]Tiz: I think its a great addition

minglb: it helps people like me to get into gold groups

minglb: eventually

SK|Tarde: yeah, really good, even though I probably won't enter it anyways^^

mek[Cu]: we sold 2200g of attunement scrolls when we heard the news anyway !

Nuvas: Removing the attunements is good fotr the overall community of WoW. It lets more casual players explore the end content of WoW without having to go through that tedium of attuning.

mek[Cu]: but i think it's really stupid

[Wowhead] Skosiris: It's good to know that Blizzard listens to the players.

mek[Cu]: to remove them

mek[Cu]: PvE progress should go in stages, giving access to all this stuff with no effort is a kick in the face for players that put the work in

[WoR] Teza: its not a good thing from my pov, they could have made the attunement easier for both instances

[WoR] Teza: instead of making them free

mek[Cu]: if you can't do the heroics you shouldn't be in those instances

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Okay. As a special request, everyone in the panel can ask their own questions to the group.

minglb: no, it helps hardcore arena players

Nuvas: i agree with you guys, but from blizzards perspective its good for them

mek[Cu]: and if you can't do magtheridon/gruul, you shouldn't be in there either

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Tiz, why don't you go first?

minglb: to buy gear

minglb: for gold

[Wowhead] Skosiris: The attunements were making raid content extremely linear, which is supposedly good but couldnt last long with alts etc.

minglb: from high end guilds

minglb: just like high end guilds can buy gear from arena teams

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: You can pass if you have no questions, of course.

mek[Cu]: well i don't think high end guilds will ever sell gear on a lot of those fights

mek[Cu]: too much of a pain to bring randoms

[Huks]Tiz: Ack, I cant think of anything, give me a second here. ;)

minglb: it just a matter of time before you can beat the encounter with 23

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Okay, we'll come back to you. Skosiris?

minglb: people instead of 25

mek[Cu]: it's not about that

mek[Cu]: it's about that 1 guy wiping you

minglb: he can die and get ressed

mek[Cu]: he can kill everyone else

minglb: and collect loot later

minglb: he can kill himseff

minglb: before it starts

 

[Wowhead] Skosiris: First of all, what classic dungeon/raid would you like to see get a Heroic mode? And Why?

minglb: Molten Core

minglb: no doubt

mek[Cu]: well i'd never bring anyone in BT/Hyjal and that's where the superior loot is (to tier2 pvp gear)

[WoR] Teza: Naxxramas

mek[Cu]: agree with teza

mek[Cu]: Naxx is the greatest instance ever made

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Deadmines! Also I'm never setting foot into MC again until Rag finally gives up my pants.

SK|Tarde: Deadmines, because it's the coolest instance.

mek[Cu]: buff it up and give that

[Huks]Tiz: Gnomeregan. I like killing gnomes.

[WoR] Teza: definitely the best instance i have experienced so far

Nuvas: I'd never go back to an old instance unless there were major revamps to it.

mek[Cu]: as for non raid i'd have to say scholomance :)

minglb: by the time BT / Hiyal becomes gold groups

Nuvas: every raid instances has been hell to me when i actively particupated in the leadership of Team Ice

minglb: season 3 would be out

mek[Cu]: i'd still rather play naxx than SSC

mek[Cu]: or TK

mek[Cu]: :)

mek[Cu]: BT is the only instance close to it in quality

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Nuvas, do you have a question for the panel?

 

Nuvas: What are your guy's thoughts on Arena Season 2? Do you think there will be a lot of changes to the current FoTM setups?

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Or anyone else? :)

minglb: there will be a lot of 4DPS teams

minglb: and there will be counters to these teams

SK|Tarde: There will be more 4dps teams.

[WoR] Teza: i got one maybe

minglb: it will be a lot of variety

minglb: far more variety than season 1

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Nuv, I think that Arena teams will always change with the flow of nerfs and buffs.

mek[Cu]: FoTM is FoTM :)

minglb: and yes that too, elizabeth-sama

mek[Cu]: it always changes

minglb: patch

 

[WoR] Teza: what are your predictions/forecast for this weekend tournament results?

minglb: ultimately blizzard is god

minglb: we are all slaves to the patches

mek[Cu]: Log wins zomg

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Teza's question, woot!

mek[Cu]: im at a lan with mackelina, he's sexy so they will win for sure

SK|Tarde: i think warders, nashwan, Log and feel the pain will be in the top 4

SK|Tarde: can't decide on in which order though^^

mek[Cu]: ye tarde

mek[Cu]: if i had to put money on it, i'd say feel the pain tho

SK|Tarde: i wouldn't^^

mek[Cu]: just sux that they didn't copy the chars over now

SK|Tarde: indeed

mek[Cu]: cause all our guys got 365 epic shadow res gear

mek[Cu]: cya !

SK|Tarde: haha

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: I honestly am not up on Arena rankings enough that I can make accurate predictions. Also, mek, owwwww.

Nuvas: current copies right now would compromise the gear equality

mek[Cu]: yeah

Nuvas: so many warriors with tier 3 weapons now

SK|Tarde: yeah

mek[Cu]: i think ull see teams with a big advantage tho in the next season

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Okay, does anyone else from the panel have a question? I think Sko had one more, but anyone else?

SK|Tarde: but old gear with new patch is also bad

SK|Tarde: i have one

mek[Cu]: with access to PvE loot like our guys

mek[Cu]: some insane stuff

mek[Cu]: from BT and Hyjal

mek[Cu]: the spell haste gear for example could be really influential

mek[Cu]: i know azzper already has a LOT of spell haste

SK|Tarde: yeah, that is kinda bad

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Tarde, your question?

SK|Tarde: ok

 

SK|Tarde: What do you think about adding t3 weapons before season 2?

Nuvas: terrible idea

[Wowhead] Skosiris: What do you mean by "adding them before season 2" ?

mek[Cu]: i think PvE gear having an influence on PvP is a bad idea

mek[Cu]: but something that will help my guild a lot so it's fine !

SK|Tarde: well, they are available

mek[Cu]: :)

SK|Tarde: you can have t3 weapon atm but not s2 weapons

mek[Cu]: in theory they have always been available tho

mek[Cu]: just the vashj cockblock that stopped it

SK|Tarde: ok

mek[Cu]: if u had been insanely lucky u could have got a t3 weapon from trash drops

mek[Cu]: but we got 1 vortex ever b4 2.1 for prophet i think

mek[Cu]: from trash

mek[Cu]: but i mean u can get 130 dps weapons from BT so ...

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Anyone else have questions ... Ming, Sko, Mek, Tiz? Last chance.

[Huks]Tiz: Yeah id like to see them separate the PVE and PVP parts of the game as much possible.

 

minglb: I have a question, what do you guys think is the best 3v3 combo? In WSVG China, 90% of the players never played TBC before. But this weekend's WSVG Lousiville every team will be very experienced. Will warrior/mage/paladin still win?

[Huks]Tiz: Nah i dont have any

mek[Cu]: well they tried to do it with resilience

SK|Tarde: I think warrior/mage/priest could do well too.

mek[Cu]: there's a few nice ones

mek[Cu]: priest,rogue,mage is cool also

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Ok, Please thank our special guests for the Debate Club on WoW Classes. Look for the transcripts on the debate club page. And check out the rest of the events for the Stride Xfire Cup 2007 Finals Festival! www.xfire.com/stride

 

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KEEP DEBATING FEEL FREE TO STAY! =oD

[Huks]Tiz: I think 3v3 is just too dang class dependent. Eventually its going to be the teams playing multiple classes extremely well that are going to win

mek[Cu]: 100% agree with tiz

mek[Cu]: 5v5 ftw

SK|Tarde: agreed

SK|Tarde: 5vs5 has always been the best bracket, since release

mek[Cu]: how come you did the debate instead of zeksy btw man ?

SK|Tarde: his connection died

mek[Cu]: ah oki

SK|Tarde: might make us miss the netherdrake^^

 

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: One last question from Sko: "What do you guys use, Thottbot, Allakhazam or Wowhead?"

mek[Cu]: nah man

SK|Tarde: all 3

Nuvas: wowhead

mek[Cu]: top 0.5% get it ?

mek[Cu]: that's a lot of teams

Nuvas: with thott everynow and then

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Wowhead for info, Thottbot for pictures.

[Huks]Tiz: Thott and Wowhead. Allakhazam was always so slow for some reason.

Nuvas: btw, netherdrakes are unique :(

SK|Tarde: been some rumours that blizzard lied about 0.5%

mek[Cu]: Log finished on 2450 anyway, watched their games today

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: I could never remember how to spell Allakhazam at the clutch moment

SK|Tarde: if it's 0.5% we should get a drake

[Wowhead] Skosiris: We`re really catching up Thottbot as far as screenshots goes.

[Wowhead] Skosiris: I think we even have more than they have now

[WoR] Teza: i have been a great fan of Allakhazam since EQ until Wowhead poppped

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Heh. It's a thin line between question and promotion opportunity :)

Nuvas: allakhazam was THE EQ site

[WoR] Teza: also the only one

mek[Cu]: ure 11th atm tarde ? wsf ? :>

Nuvas: true, lol

mek[Cu]: but skrosiris damn

mek[Cu]: what was that nihilum stuff on your site

SK|Tarde: we played some 3pointers and lost some bad games and got discs

mek[Cu]: that was soo gay :)

Nuvas: alright guys, im outta here!

[Wowhead] Skosiris: mek: What stuff?

mek[Cu]: the thing u had about nihilum's progress

mek[Cu]: i just thought it was funny :)

[Huks]Tiz: Nice talking with you guys, have a good night. Hope to see you in Anaheim!

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Just a reminder, the debate is officially over, although the arguments may continue into the night.

SK|Tarde: yeah, hope so too tiz

mek[Cu]: and i wondered what caused you to do it

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: What about Nih's progress, Sko?

mek[Cu]: it was just a thing they had on their site about "gratz to nihilum on their amazing progress"

mek[Cu]: and i just didn't understand why you put that on a database site

[Wowhead] Skosiris: oh hehe, they just had us plug their recent progress. Just some way to thank them for sending us their WDBs full of "world first" items I guess :)

mek[Cu]: and i thought it was somewhat disrespectful to the other 3-4 top teams putting in the effort also

mek[Cu]: well if you want all top guilds to support you with their new items, you shouldn't favor just one team

mek[Cu]: at least not to that level

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Yeah, a lot of people complained about this frontpage promotion for 1 select guild. It shall not happen again

mek[Cu]: okidoki

mek[Cu]: love your site tho, my favourite database site by far

mek[Cu]: goodnight guys im off :) was fun

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Cool :D

[Xfire] mbg: THANKS TO EVERYONE!

SK|Tarde: cya

mek[Cu]: and good luck tarde

mek[Cu]: in germany :)

SK|Tarde: ty

mek[Cu]: great to see lots of stormscale guys going :)

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Gotta go too (dinner time). See you later everyone, this was a very entertaining debate.

[Xfire] mbg: Transcripts coming out tomorrow!

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: Once again, thanks for everyone for coming/

SK|Tarde: stormscale is the best

mek[Cu]: nashwan is mainly ex mannel guys

[WoR] Teza: heh yeah was fun seing old faces

[WoW Insider] ewachowski: And we'll see you again later!

SK|Tarde: yeah, they are

[WoR] Teza: i do miss Stormscale tbh

SK|Tarde: i miss ganking curse on their way to raids=(

SK|Tarde: and trying to destroy the AQ-event

[WoR] Teza: like you could

[WoR] Teza: laggy event ftw

SK|Tarde: =)

SK|Tarde: yeah

SK|Tarde: got so many mean privs after that

[WoR] Teza: what is the horde top guild on Stormscale now?

SK|Tarde: in pve or pvp?

SK|Tarde: actually, i don't know anything about either^^

SK|Tarde: they are switching guilds every day

[WoR] Teza: k

SK|Tarde: CT disbanded and since then there has only been chaos

SK|Tarde: im off

SK|Tarde: cya!