The Two-Handed Sword
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Xfire Debate Club 3rd Meeting: Life in WoW After Level 70
April 11th, 2007 (Open Debate Transcript)

[Xfire] SDaria: FIRST QUESTION *****what are you doing with your life after 70?

GhOsT: ill just get all the best stuff

green drake: im gonna try too raid as much as i can and play arena and fly around

Fr4ntic: What I am doing after level 70? I farm pots like a maniac, I raid everyday (almost atleast) and I do abit World PVP, but it's not fun when Curse gank you :(

Kabookie: Alot of Kara :X

Tuhani: Lvling an alt doing the arena.. Pvping

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: Farming and leveling others up really

*RsCt*DraGon: I'm also raiding karazhan

321: PVP, don't really enjoy raiding

Tuhani: Raiding with a guild

Loz: Personally, I'm planning on getting my guild PvE progression going

=GvL=Urban: what am i doing after 70, lvling my warrior and going for karazhan farm status

Explicit: Its still raiding, PvP and epicgrinding from Professions

[PeniX] Madix-3: I wanted to do Arena-PVP but i think ist rly retarded. You have to have Highend-Gear to survive in the Ladder

Lionheart: Yeah when i'm 70 I shall raid for good gear and stuff, so there should deffinetly be mooooore instances

lil batty: i dont understand why you're lvling alts... i mean there's so MUCH to do after u ding 70

[PeniX] Madix-3: which sucks

ﻜﮦﻜ^Iηﮔﮦmηﺎå: thnx

Tuhani: Not only that its all the farming that goes into raiding

321: Also doing arena with my team in 3v3 and 2v2

feY: raiding..i've already own a epic mount^^

Coen: There is almost TO much to do when you're at 70 :)

Lionheart: When i'm 70 it'll be hard for people to see me in stealth too haha

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: I like Arena, but I really love solo'ing Lower levelled instances.

Haysead: I am waiting till they comeout with the next path so I can get the sweet ass fly form.

Woet: Bye

Coen: I just bought epic flying mount, woot :)

Tuhani: You cant forget about that you need a lot of pots and such at 70 for kara

Tuhani: and other raids

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: saw the pics on Nith's website and the issues they present with the fight

Fr4ntic: I agree with lil batty, there is so much to do after level 70

[PeniX] Madix-3: I did an alt because well I cant join any highend-raidnng Guild and Arena wont work for me. Those epic bitches keep slaughtering me ^^

GhOsT: yea same here

ﻜﮦﻜ^Iηﮔﮦmηﺎå: Once you hit lvl 70 gold farming i believe is highly suggested.

*RsCt*DraGon: heroic instances also, they are pretty hard

Lionheart: there should still be more to do when 70 though

Tuhani: Theres more to do at 70 and you dont feel like you have to farm instances

Haysead: Yeah, everyone said it will be boring but I disagree

Explicit: Gold farming?

Avre: I hit level 70 on my undead holy priest within a week after release. That same night, we attempted Karazhan in my guild. Second on my server to hit the instance. Since then, clearing KZ, reputation grinds and keying for 25 mans has taken my playing time.

Tuhani: It seems that at 70 the whoel game opens up more then it did at 60

green drake: il also fish when i get level 70

Revo: i have recently been levelling a BE pally too, and i can quite honestly say its one of the most mind numbing experiences ive ever had in WoW. Paladins are great to heal with, but to spec ret and try and grind quests and mobs to 70 is ridiculous with a class which is a defensive class. I cant wait to get to 70 and spec holy

Loz: I'm also trying to powerlevel my fishing for consumable mats

Explicit: Getting gold on 70? on 70 you already have alot of gold

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: i agree the journey can be just as fun as the end result

[PeniX] Madix-3: (hail to the Blutdurst-pool) ^^

Haysead: NO!

Haysead: Not in my opinion

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: I like havingt a new Toon, but Miss having the power of being 70.

Happy-Ruben: I used to PvP alot and run instances with friends, but ive recently quit...WoW is a joke now if u compare it with pre-tbc imo

[PeniX] Madix-3: Nope

Tuhani: The arena set up is nice. how you get the rating and you lose it goes down

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: And my mount.

GhOsT: no

[Xfire] SDaria: ***** NEXT QUESTION *****has the arena setup been a success?

Revo: 70 is certainly where the real wow starts... for non-casuals anyway

GhOsT: nope

Happy-Ruben: No

ﻜﮦﻜ^Iηﮔﮦmηﺎå: somewhat

drarsemaster: Nopher, how important do you think dwarf warriors are to endgame raiding

ﻜﮦﻜ^Iηﮔﮦmηﺎå: there is a yes and no side to it

kumbol: a bit...

Revo: Yes it certainly has, although only for the hardcore

Tuhani: The arena setup isnt the best, But remember its a work in progress

*RsCt*DraGon: not really

lil batty: arenas are nicely done, but the system still has to be worked on

Explicit: i think life after 70 is more hardcore than it was after 60

[PeniX] Madix-3: The Arena system just sucks IMHO. Only those with Epic-Gear suceed and get to the Top ladders. Look at the Armory!

=GvL=Urban: lol

feY: NO... its absolutly unfair....

drarsemaster: lmao

Avre: Explicit: there is definetly more to work on at 70 than after 60.

*RsCt*DraGon: The system is much like the old PvP system with the ranks

Lionheart: I think it's safe to say the majority of the people here, think it's not as good as it could be so improvement should be made to it.

Loz: I like the way the work most of it, although the bugs such as DCs when loading arenas need serious fixing

green drake: i mean that the arena swtup has been a sucsess because its wery funny and u hawe too think too make it good and u dont need too play so wery much as u had too do before

Explicit: Grinding rep and mats is more important then ever

[PeniX] Madix-3: I consider myself being a very good pvp player but 7K pyroes are too much for me

Tuhani: When you hit 70 and head into the arena. Its like this. I see most people just play 10 games and be done

Happy-Ruben: Arena is too much based on luck in the first place if u ask me tbh, + ive had SO much more fun with AB/WSG farming

Haysead: Yeah but I got whiped.


GhOsT: yea its not fair like others say

Ichimaru: what's arena like?

ﻜﮦﻜ^Iηﮔﮦmηﺎå: I wouldnt suggest the arena if you dont have good enough gear

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Ahem. Im only a 500 Damage and healing Warlock, And I do great in PvParenas, It's all about who you're matched, not how well you twink or grind.

Artica: fun

321: No, would be nice to have standardised gear, right now the raiders are heavily favoured in arena.

[SAM] B!shop: what chat is this?

Ozzie: I think they should bring the PVP ranks back

ﻜﮦﻜ^Iηﮔﮦmηﺎå: if you are leet then you arent getting anywhere

Haysead: It is based solely on luck.

Tuhani: Ghost you say its not fair? When has PVP ever been fair?

Moox: Arenas arnt luck...

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Agreed Haysead

Tuhani: Arenas take skill imo

Avre: I was a HWL prior to TBC release, after the pvp patch the BGs have been relatively unorganize and pointless. My arena team is first on the server and the gear there is actually worth working for. Blizard has failed in keeping the pvp rewards on par with raid gear.

Ichimaru: no skill involed? like a damn 3 min mage?

some_kid: yeah, i like pvp ranks... for bragging rights if nothing else

GhOsT: yea good point lol

lil batty: arenas are good, because you get to try your chances with a m8 vs 2, 3 or 5 other ppl, that lets you use all your skills and cooldowns just to be number 1

Lionheart: Yeah, pvp ranks werre good for bragging haha

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: agree on that one - warriors whom thought they were nerfed are owning in Arena

Moox: I have a 2k rating. You call that luck?

Haysead: Yeah

Haysead: lol

Avre: Also, the lack of healing weapons for arena and pvp priests which actually heal is upsetting. Can anyone else relate?

Haysead: j/k

Coen: I think Arena takes to much time to grind, when u r looking forward to the PvP Set

Revo: The one thing which would balance arena is to remove 2v2 and 3v3 ladders, give standardised gear to participants at the beginning of battle, and only have 5v5 ladder.... but then you have the problem of not appealing to casuals

*RsCt*DraGon: the old PvP system kind of screwed up many people, because they were trying to grind all-day long

Tuhani: PVP has and always will be about who has what gear

Haysead: Tru

Moox: Healign weapons are comming in 2.1

kumbol: Im doing Arenas when I have totally nothing better to do or if wednesdays is near and need to play 10 matches to get some points :P

ﻜﮦﻜ^Iηﮔﮦmηﺎå: i agree

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: 4k Execute crits from a lvl 66 warrior are sick so imagine at 70

nthanmrris: /waits for someone to cry nerf a class

Explicit: Why is it luck, its more about teamwork and partyplay

Haysead: no

Lionheart: Grinding is extremely boring..

Loz: I agree with the healing weapons, play a 70 resto druid and it's frankly depressing

Ozzie: So, what do you think the best class is in PVP?

Tuhani: Look at Pre-TBC It wasnt fair just who ever had the best gear it seemed

some_kid: zomg, less talking i cant read it all

Moox: Nerf locks, buff pallys

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: No

Tuhani: Yes skill helps out but its not always required

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: No nerfing locks.

Artica: buff pallies? hah.

*RsCt*DraGon: no

Revo: pallys dont need buffed, they are fantatsic at what they do... theyre just very frustrating to level

Moox: Locks are the most OP class ever.

Dhomochevsky: skill isnt required?

Tuhani: No they havent

Haysead: In my realm it is all about luck because one day you might get the idiot teamn and another day you might get the fast team, imo

[Xfire] SDaria: ***** NEXT QUESTION *****

professional gaming has started to look at arenas too-- 3v3 is in the world series of gaming, and 5v5 teams are being sponsored. do you think blizzard has done what they wanted to, and made skill the indicator of success?

Dhomochevsky: if u dont have skill suck

Dhomochevsky: u suck*

[PeniX] Madix-3: I dislike WoW being a ESL game

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Skill = Sucess is just asking for Another whole Gold Farming type sceme happening.

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: interesting how WoW is in the World Series of Gaming, are those gamers leveling WoW toons now or are they going to be given accounts

Tuhani: It still seems that its about who has the better gear along with a small amount of skill

*RsCt*DraGon: If you have skill it means you have good strategies against other classes

321: No, gear > skill. The WSVG is using standardised gear to fix this 'problem'.

Ichimaru: let's say I have a brother that would do arena with me, like 2v2 and we start owning, would that be luck?

green drake: yes i think they hawe done that becuse if u hawe good items and no plan u die

kumbol: Blizz is trying to make WoW so hardcore as CS is :o

Moox: I think Pandemic is making an awful move in picking up a WoW arena team. Dolven needs to really rethink his business strategy.

Revo: Not really, skill only goes so far, then you have t think about gear... only the most hardcore and dedicated will have the gear needed to tip them over the top. You look at the top arena ladder and you see all top participants have insane 70 gear. Things that casual players just dont have acess to

Dhomochevsky: lol wow isnt that hardcore. compared to say ffxi :P

[PeniX] Madix-3: its kinda unfair isnt it? I belive that Nihilium or For the Horde or D+T will do the First Slot

some_kid: CS 1.6 forever

Fr4ntic: Sponsors in a MMO is so wrong in my oppinion. It sounds all wrong. Don't you play a MMO for fun like any other game? This is just insane, when I saw the 3on3 on the WSVG I was laughing bad to be honest.

lil batty: skill and good teamwork can beat gear - and besides, serious PvE has barely started, it's not like u get 1 hitted by imba geared ppl

Haysead: They are trying their absolute best

Ichimaru: i agree with him

Tuhani: Skill can only help so much in place of gear. Say i have 2 rogues one in epics and one in greens. They both have equal skill. Whos going to win? The epic one because of his gear

Revo: Have you tried pvping against mages batty?

[PeniX] Madix-3: Sponsors? lawl just thonk about

[PeniX] Madix-3: In my Opinion all classes are fine so lts dont fall into the "Nerf >class

GhOsT: gear and tatics

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: cosumables are being nerfed however what is going to happen then when you can only have one offensive pot and one defensive pot on at a time

Revo: It looks like there is alot of coordinationr equired in the new instances.

Tuhani: You need a lot of time and consumables

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: POtions, Healthstones, Tactics and TIME.

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: End.

Haysead: Everything, teamwork, communication, patience, consumables.

Coen: Combo of Tier and/or PvP set

Revo: Its a huge pity that the new instances are being rushed out rather than letting poeple catch up a little first

Moox: They arnt nerfing consumables. They are just making them easier to farm.

Coen: that take a lot of grinding :(

green drake: consumables team work and focus + tactics

=GvL=Urban: agreed

*RsCt*DraGon: have people know how to play their classes well since they may the only class in the raid (e.g - karazhan)

lil batty: the secret is: lotsa gold for flasks, good teamwork, great gear especially on the important classes like warrior/priest :)

Tuhani: You need to have very good gear honestly

Loz: I wouldn't say gear is as important as good teamplay tbh

[PeniX] Madix-3: The Good players just gather together naturally. You have 2 or 3 Topguilds on a server and there the ppl just hang in Themselves

Explicit: I think a part of the succes is just it being new too


some_kid: paladins are the key

Lionheart: Patience is wondrous :)

=GvL=Urban: patience

Loz: Agreed, paladin buffs are sexy.

some_kid: silence is golden, duct tape is silver... stfu

some_kid: :D

Coen: true

Fr4ntic: Consumables don't take alot of time to get. It goes really fast and the gold is easy to get today so you can buy easy in the AH.

╚╗╠♣čŖăĪĝŹă♣╣╔╝: lol no social life aswel.... wow life is more important

GhOsT: gear and teamwork to me is the most inportant things

321: Paladins for the win indeed :D

Tuhani: Take most guilds now. They hit a raid instance and they bring mass amounts of consumables, have parience

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: the stacked potion days are going to be gone soon

Moox: Paladin + Shadow priest = Endless Heals

Tuhani: and some of the best teamwork

nthanmrris: Drive and determination to progress

Haysead: agred

=GvL=Urban: agreed

Lionheart: "Teamwork!"

Explicit: The will to continue indeed

Haysead: exactly

[Xfire] SDaria: ***** NEXT QUESTION *****how often do you all find yourselves wiping on bosses before you have taken them down? is it a long learning process, or is it just a matter of "getting it" once?

lil batty: and pew pew!

*RsCt*DraGon: teamwork for sure

Revo: I have huge fun watching guilds like Nihilum and DnT battling out for these bosses.. but i can barely relate to it because theres such a small chance for guilds to be in SSC or the eye at this point

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: I really wish that the whole Gear Durability was slightly less, I mean, its hard enough trying to sort a raid without people going "Oh, sorry, broken armour, back in ten"

ToM =): Depends what bos...

Lionheart: GETTING. IT. ONCE.

Moox: It took us a couple of nights to get gruul pre nerf.

=GvL=Urban: depends on boss

nthanmrris: It just takes a couple of times for my guild to take down a boss

ToM =): boss*

Tuhani: It takes some time for a guild to find a strat on a boss

kumbol: Its a matter of peoples in party

[PeniX] Madix-3: Getting it. Absolutely

Ichimaru: i get in a good guild and they all become assholes of the server, but the zg guilds or something of the sort are nice and invite anyone in, The end game guild are full of fat nerds with no job and spend there time lonly in the night? sorry, it's out of topic, but wondering

=GvL=Urban: some take longer to learn

Haysead: Getting it

Tuhani: it all diepends on what boss your taking on and your class make up

Loz: I think you need to play a boss a fair few times, say 3 just so you can recognise and play through the different phases

*RsCt*DraGon: To get a boss down, we always look at strategies first at websites to see where classes are needed and how they have to contribute in a boss

Revo: Once you get a boss down for the first time, it will be easy the future trys. Its a matter of people finding what works for them, and once they realise a winning formula, they will repeat it

nthanmrris: After the initial "Oh Crap what do we do", we usually figure it out

Explicit: Most just read the tactics other guilds made. once they get the tactic the boss is down

Tuhani: Honestly longer to lean

Lionheart: Well, getting it once aslong as some idiot thinks it'll be funny to do a "Leeroy"

GhOsT: u can get new strates on how to defeat the boos later

Ozzie: There's plenty of strats on the internet which seem to work, and there's always a guy in the guild that knows what to do, so aslong as you have the right people, we usually dont wipe

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Whoah whoah whoah RsCt, you look at strats?

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Why?

321: It takes a couple of downings to get the boss down perfectly.

Haysead: Yeah my guild has those Oh Crap moments eery so often the we work through it

*RsCt*DraGon: It's not a matter of getting a boss down in their first attempt, there always has to be some improvement shown on every attempt

[PeniX] Madix-3: Depends on how "bright your candelaber" is ;D

Tuhani: Its easy to 1 shot a boss sometimes but harder to have him on farm status. It takes time and knowing whats going to happen when

green drake: its a learning process u hawe too analyse how the boss acts and place the people soo that u dont die and use the right spells at the right times

[PeniX] Madix-3: Candelaber=guild ;P

lil batty: bosses, especially when the part of the party/raid hasnt done them may be hard. but a bit of practice, using cooldowns and teamwork n the boss is dead :) you just gotta learn by doing ,or be a really fast learner by listening to directions :)

321: Just becuse you have killed a boss once doesn't mean you'll get him the next time for sure, without wiping a few times.

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: I want our guild ot do it by trial and error, by skills and persevarance

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Not how someone else did it

Tuhani: A raid boss is something like a scriped event with different outcomes

Lionheart: i agree with nick/butt

Explicit: Most guilds do use tactics off the internet tho nick

GhOsT: well sometimes with boss's it depends on your party thats with u

=GvL=Urban: Nick has a point, but i also think it depends on the guild / people

Revo: Just added to what skosiris has said, i believe the "character of the month" feeling manifests itself hugely in wow. During the druids buff time, i seen such a huge amount of druids levelling like crazy.. tyring to get a piece of the pie. It was frustrating for me having been a druid for 2 years to see all these people get it so easy

Moox: 321, thats nonsense. Kara/Maulgar can be one shot by expierienced guilds.

Fr4ntic: We in our guild do it our way, the way we find it suit best for us. We try different "tactics" and we also test encounters naked to get people more understanding of them.'

Explicit: The drive to get further, usually is stronger than they want to try it themselcves

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: The guild people is a major factor. You dont want to be raiding with people that make you unhappy.

Tuhani: Remember evey guild might have a different strat for a different boss

GhOsT: yea

Haysead: exactly

=GvL=Urban: agreed

[Xfire] Artaxs: Agreed, Skosiris.... Alchemists get a bum deal in a raid guild.

Tuhani: point

Ichimaru: indeed

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: i agree with Sko,,,if your a mage and an alchemist you should be able to conjure certain pots at lvl 70 like foodand water

Lionheart: Agreedx2

=GvL=Urban: do what works best

some_kid: i like me

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Imagine trying to support a whole guild with no ideas what to do for a raid, you need at least 2-3 people making tatics

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Am ir ight?

Loz: I agree Revo, all the new feral druids got the class hated by other players, I was being punished for the newbies that should L2P and reroll rogues

=GvL=Urban: sometimes what works for other guilds doesnt work

Explicit: you are

Lionheart: yeah, nick, you're right

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: Mage = Farming = raid sucka for food/water/pots

Tuhani: Its all about knowing whos in your guild and what they could use

Explicit: But then again, how many people wanna figure tactics out

lil batty: you should basically know the people you work and play with :)

GhOsT: agreed

Tuhani: Have different outs talso

green drake: its important too hawe serious people who dont spam on team speak or ventrilo when the raid leader is explaning how the boss should be taken down

nthanmrris: My guild likes doing it =D

GhOsT: yes deffiently

*RsCt*DraGon: yes , agreed

Tuhani: Honeslty if you dont know you should have parited with them or ask them what pots they want

Explicit: Hmm, had a load of captain jack last time on teamspeak

nthanmrris: I have more fun when I down a boss for the first time, without looking up someone else's strat, makes me feel more accomplished

[PeniX] Madix-3: Agreed Greendrake

Revo: I have the utmost respect for guilds who feel out the tactics all by themselves. I can only imagine the huge amount of observation that this entails. And i can only imagine how bad they must feel when they see guilds just following their lead and feeling good about it

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Agreed.

Avre: Nopher: The power gain from the gear upgrades has taken some of the steam out of our raiding progress, and we were a Naxx guild. Did you notice a change in the drive of your guild when the loot was at best mediocre upgrades?

Loz: Or nerf bosses slightly and nerf consumables Loads more

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Whoah whoah, The whole Jewlcrafting and socketing just creats another problem

lil batty: nerf consumables - so that killing a boss wont be based on your -oh so imbah 2000 buffs- but on your teamwork and skill

Haysead: Blizzard have several options for fixing the consumables issue, one is to remove flasks altogether (which they wont) and another is to let elixirs last beyond death like flasks do today

nthanmrris: Nerfing comsumables, while making it more difficult, will again give those people a sense of accomplishment when downing a boss, not having to rely on them so much that it tips the scales of a fight

[PeniX] Madix-3: Right Now many of my M8es cant even kill The Curator or such

*RsCt*DraGon: nerf bosses slightly, I think they are doing that with Gruul from what I heard

Haysead: Agreed

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Puts a huge strain on the market.

Moox: There will always be consumable based fights. Even in Naxx, the best tuned instance ever. They really just need to nerf the luck in the BC fights.

Revo: I just hate how people get off on thinking theyve just done fantastic on taking down a boss such as attumen... theres no skill in that, its just basic sense

drarsemaster: Nopher, how important are dwarf warriors to endgame raiding?

ToM =): What Skosiris is saying:

[PeniX] Madix-3: like 0? ^^

Revo: Skosiris that is definetly not anymore. hybrids are maifesting big time in TBC

Tuhani: Nerf the bosses why? Your not helping anyone. Your helping pregression but its not goin anywhere.

Explicit: But wont Nerfing everything gettin the less hardcore gamers to a stop?

Loz: Personally, I've found a stupid ammount of supposed healing items from endgame instances they were far outsripped by my 62-5 healing items, it's totally ridiculous

Moox: There is nothing wrong with Pally/Shadow priest combo.

Moox: Free mana, good dps

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Hybrids are the way forward, It's called NATURAL SELECTION :) Evolution, and it works.

Lionheart: It would be good if you could kill players of your own faction... :)

Yoshi: lol

kumbol: ;))

Moox: Paladins are not a hybrid. We are a pure healing class.

Yoshi: thats what dueling is for ;)

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: our guild you play what you want and when we faill at things then the person realizes hey "I could have done better if i was prot i am respeccing"

GhOsT: yea that would be good

lil batty: people should be allowed to play whatever specc they like in a raind, just so that it all works out. if palas wanna heal and priests dps then it's fine

Loz: You can, it's called the arena

Revo: I mean look at druids... they are viable in any spec. The only reason a guild master might force them to spec is because there isnt enough resto druids etc. in that case they shouldnt be raiding with the guild

Yoshi: i vote for free spec changing on the fly!

[PeniX] Madix-3: There was this Conclusion with a "Talent stone" which would store 2 different Specs. This was a good one! Be a MS Warri for the Arenas and a Tank for the Raid!

Lionheart: I'd never respec cos some guy told me to.

GhOsT: blizzzard should give more freedom in the game

*RsCt*DraGon: I agree lil batty, but when it comes to guilds where they don't have enough people, they want to tell some classes to focus on healing

Tuhani: Yea but what if you dont have one of the best warriors? Why not bring a feral druid in to tank?

Moox: There is specs for raiding and specs for pvp. You dont bring a BM hunter to a raid. You dont bring a muti rogue to a raid. You DONT BRING A RET PALLY TO A RAID. That simple

nthanmrris: Players should be able to play their own spec, HOWEVER, they must also be willing to respec for the cases that they need to do something else ie burst damage, tank instead of heal, etc

Tuhani: They can dps while tanking

[PeniX] Madix-3: Wrong moox

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Druids tanking,

*RsCt*DraGon: my guild uses some shadow priests in raids and paladins as healers, off course you also have priests healing, but you have 1 or 2 shadow priests in 25-man encounters

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Heh

[PeniX] Madix-3: Muti rogue is THE Raidspec

ToM =): YES YOU CAN! I am a RET PALLY who raids!

Revo: the thing which gets to me is how much healing specced players are expected to grind to the same extent as offensive specced players.... i used to be a resto druid and when i would ask for some help farming things for raids, and noone helped id go buck mad.... im gimping myself to let others go on an ego trip seeing big numbers on their screen

ToM =): I can out DPS some rogues!

[Xfire] SDaria: ***** NEXT QUESTION ***** (Sorry)

D&T is famously using paladins to heal and priests to dps-- is there something wrong with that?

lil batty: yes dragon, so people should at least _try_ to do their PvE job, untill the guild gets more ppl/they get exp by working in a grp etc

Yoshi: whats wrong with BM hunters?

Tuhani: No its not

Explicit: No

[PeniX] Madix-3: Nope thats cool

nthanmrris: No there isn't

ToM =): heh

Moox: Nope


Yoshi: nope

Loz: I think sometimes people should respec if the guild needs it, for example I play a resto druid and sometimes I'd much rather go oomkin and not have to worry about keeping people alive, or taking the blame, but if the guild needs it to progess I think people should be willing to make that sacrifice

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: You get the feeling it's less effective, but it works out fine

Moox: What isnt wrong with a BM hunter in a raid?

Explicit: I have been lvling healadin with my friend who is shadow priest

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Pallys healingg? Er.

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: I've seen shadow priests easily out-dps pallys

Tuhani: Pallys are one of the most mana effiecnt healers. While a Shadow Priests DPS is up there

[PeniX] Madix-3: Priests are rly strong dd'ers and Pallies simply heal better

Revo: its fine, but its wrong that priests primary function is now shadow. Its ridiculous

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Not really my thing, I think pallys should be just there to take the whacks.

GhOsT: yea

Explicit: For me it is far better than the times i had to lvl with a holy priest

Revo: Priests primary function should be holy, but with shadow their for pvping, grinding, levelling

*RsCt*DraGon: shadow priests on raids, 1 or 2 in 25 mans, and 2 or more for healing, paladins are the healing class on raids in my guild

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: its isn't the damage a priest does its the vp embrace adn touch benefits they give to the party while they dps

Avre: Revo: I play a holy priest, both in pvp and pve fashions. I understand your frustrations. What is bothering me more is that pallies can and have taken the place of a priest in 5mans and more importantly in raids and arena.

lil batty: i dont like the fact that in 5 man instances shadow priest healing is not good enough

Tuhani: And wtih a shadow priest and Vampric Embrace you shouldn't have the problem of running out of mana

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Pallys are notorious for being hard to kill, part of the reason that the Horde hated them so much pre-BC, which lets them double as their own tank and DPS

Moox: On Gruul when I was in a party with a shadow priest I never had to Pot once.

Explicit: Healadins can heal just fine and especially with a shadow priest

Yoshi: for BM hunters: well in raids, i can see why you wouildnt want them, but they are great in instances

green drake: pala got more armour and health soo they dont need too heal themselfes soo mucha as priest soo it makes some sense

Explicit: Infinita mana

Avre: I am constantly the only healing priest taken along in raid, because why take a softer priest that can oom when you can take a holy pallie?

Loz: Yup, I really dislike the fact that a paladin, wearing PLATE should be able to push me out of a healing spot, when priests/druids have to sacrifice so much more

Revo: i agree avre, paladins are very OP healers atm, and i feel sorry for priests, who rolled to heal and are now being forced by broken specs to go shadow due to everyone wanting pallys

Lionheart: a level 11 paladin has more armor than my level 41 rogue :(

Avre: Or multiple holy pallies.

[Xfire] SDaria: ****SuB QUESTION****

do you guys use paladins to mainheal and shadow priest on raids?

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: So, along with that, if they get too much threat because of good healing, they can manage themselves

Tuhani: Not only that if your bring a healadin and he gets aggro HE WONT DIE FROM 1 SHOT! Hes not a clothie so your not losing a healer

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Healadins need one thing to make them right - A power word - Shield equiv, that can be casted on others.

nthanmrris: Yes

Yoshi: agreed

Tuhani: My guild does we have 2 healadins and 1 shadow priest sometimes

Moox: We bring 3 pallys, 3 priests, 2 resto druids.

GhOsT: agreed

Lionheart: Yup.

Explicit: Yess

Avre: Revo: My job has come to buffing the raid, renews, dispelling and keeping the paladins healed because they get a return in mana from my healing.

Tuhani: We also bring a druid

ToM =): Oh yes buff them even more! -.-

nthanmrris: I have 2 Priests, 1 Healadin, and 1 shadow priest

[PeniX] Madix-3: Dont buff Paladins without nerfing them at the other end

Revo: skosiris thats the cost of raiding

Explicit: Seems like priests became the buffingmachines pallies were

Tuhani: But wouldnt you have to bring 3 priest or some CC for Moroes?

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: The essential advantage of having a healadin over a priest healing, is that if it generates too much threat from healing, it can hold on its own with mail/plate armor and higher stamina stuff than a priest with cloth.

*RsCt*DraGon: exactly what nthanmrris said, 2 priests, 1 healadin and 1 shadow priest

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: in my groups, Sometimes we have two Warlocks, One priest, a tank, and any-specced druid.

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Thats our plan

nthanmrris: Moroes is simple, we did it last night with just 1 priest

[PeniX] Madix-3: I am sick and tired of "Hybrids" doing more Damage than me as a rogue

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Always works.

Revo: you would progress atall when you have 10 ret palies, 1 resto druid , 6 fury warrs and some shadow priests

*RsCt*DraGon: many a druid also for healing

Revo: its the price of progression

Loz: I must say I would _Always_ take a disc/holy priest for the spirit/stam buff, it's just sexy.

[PeniX] Madix-3: ofc

Lionheart: I had a dream that there were more classes for WoW. And I felt great in that dream, so it must be a good idea to make more classes

[PeniX] Madix-3: Loz

Tuhani: Loz - its nice isnt it but anyway why not have a healadin

Explicit: And to top that, its thgee way it used to go!


Tuhani: they dont get 1 shotted and can bubble heal

Revo: you roll a class for its roll in doing whatever it does best. If your annoyed at your guild making you heal as a pally in raids, then you should have specced a dps class. its not fair to be so selfish

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Fair point, isnt this about life after 70? Not about class wars,

Avre: The reason I am constantly taken as the sole holy priest is because I stacked +healing and spirit gear, so I can heal continually and sit back and regen very quickly. Druids are better used to innvervate me and so that I can continue to supplement the paladins heals.

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: More classes, Agreed Liamheart

[PeniX] Madix-3: Lol lightwells xD Who skills that crap?

Loz: True, healadins do get some buffs I would trade my combat rez for >.

Revo: The lack of proper raid loot in TBC is the reason why people are loosing feeling for the game. While I, and a very few select other people raid for the experiences and skill test, many people raid for the loot... for an ego boost. And in TBC when the loot isnt sufficient for that ego boost, then people will be naturally put off

Avre: Loot has be an overall disappointment. My tier 4 is not better than my primal mooncloth tailor set + Kara epic combination.

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: I mean, here's what you choose from. A small group, about 5 70

Loz: yes, I've been known to pass on endgame items and keeping level 62 blues, items need some serious balancing

GhOsT: some of the lower lvl people to me shold have a special armor thats strong but not over powering

Yoshi: so, how many of you are level 70 draenei with full tier 4? lol

[PeniX] Madix-3: If it would sustain through dmage that would be kinda cool

Lionheart: that mancow make 60 in 4 days so obviously blizzard knew the day they released TBC people would be 70

Tuhani: Its just like wheres the better stuff from all of this

Avre: I am asked to pick up my tier 4 because it might be buffed someday, and my guild is holding out hope.

[PeniX] Madix-3: Tier 4 is ridicoulus

Tuhani: Take Pre-TBC if you did 5 mans and such you did ZG or MC or something it was a big upgrade for you

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: *s, or attempting to organize a huge 25-man raid to get the same stuff. Blizzard may have thought of this while developing content, realizing that some players don't have the resources to organize a raid.

dvspns: caster can craft all thet epic fomr taliorning. the T5 will barly replace if they even want it

киιfєy -- : lol

nthanmrris: The only reason I keep my tier 4, is for the 2 piece bonus

[PeniX] Madix-3: I wear nothing of it but globes from Attumen

киιfєy -- : hi

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: What about groups of 5 level 70's taking out ZG?

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Thats really well thought out - Not

[PeniX] Madix-3: Tahts cool :D

green drake: it wil be another exspansion mihael morhaine one of the funders said so one new expansion each year as long as the game is popular he said too a norwegian newspaper

Tuhani: Nothing lol

Yoshi: good luck with that lol

Ozzie: what do you thibnk the next expansion will include?

Yoshi: new level cap

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Hyjal, if not sooner

Moox: The paladin 2 piece bonus is +20 to Seal of Light. I never use Seal of Light. Wisdom all the way.

Tuhani: Blizz is just helping out the casuals right now

Yoshi: t5

Lionheart: t6

Yoshi: t12989

Loz: They can if they want too, I've raiding ZG at 70 and it all seems a bit pointless, although it does help with guild dynamics if you have some really thick people.

GhOsT: new area or secret weapons

GhOsT: for the new expansion

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: I want to see T6 Warlock ghear.wa

Avre: I went into ZG with three people this week to get idols for paladin enchants. Has anyone noticed the lackluster of the current enchants avaliable for holy paladins? Overall, my guild has determined that repping the BE pallies to friendly in ZG and getting them the enchants there is more worth our time.

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: *Gear

*RsCt*DraGon: IMO, 60 raid loots like MC for t1 may have been comparable to other items, but as soon as it got to BWL, epics were epics, they were upgradeable from blues for sure on that one, but I feel for now, all the epic loots are very comparable and may be barely upgradeable with blue loots

Yoshi: extremely hard quests u need everyone in the entire realm to complete....

nthanmrris: 100% to resist interruption on frostbolt and fireball ftw

Revo: it annoys me that the games 4 healers are all now HYBRIDS. WHY? why can they all do sufficient dps and sufficient tanking to be the other spec easily in a raid? it detracts people from the healing aspect which they rolled the class for initially. And the thing which annoys me is, this will never be changed as its the only way healers can level and grind

Yoshi: lol

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: The problem with "secret" areas on an MMO, is that once it's found, there's nothing stopping that person to share it with everyone.

Moox: Ashbringer...

Explicit: T6 should be a bigger upgrade

Lionheart: T6 should be godmode

*RsCt*DraGon: I think from T5 it should be a huge upgrade from T4

Yoshi: t6 = domination

[PeniX] Madix-3: t6=t3 before TBC

Avre: Revo: I am sorry, I missed what class you play.

Ray-Son: t6 should look better

Explicit: yes

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Obv.

[PeniX] Madix-3: or it would be ridicoulus

lil batty: well black ranger do u want the ppl that spotted the 'secret' banned or killed by islamic terrorists? :P

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: I'd love faster travel outside of outland

Revo: Druid

Tuhani: Isnt blizz also working on fixing the gear?

*RsCt*DraGon: as it is a 25 man raid and it is going to be more like Naxx IMO

kumbol: I think Blizz dont want to let hardcore raiders be too overpowered than casual players who dont want / dont have time for raiding

Loz: Actualy, I leveld a 60 druid to 70 staying resto all the way, although it wasn't fun ¬.¬

Explicit: So that will be the only upgrade

GhOsT: well what id blizzard had a random area point for it like every day or something

Explicit: But then again

Revo: i have alot of resentment for people who rolled healers yet refuse to heal

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: nice job in here folks you're saying some good stuff

nthanmrris: Kumbol, that didn't stop them before

Explicit: t6 wont be managed as easy as kharazan and such

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Danke

Yoshi: t6 should look better? better than what? the t4 and 5 look insane

Lionheart: The next expansion should include: An underwater world and aqua races :)

Explicit: T6 dungeons will be just like Naxx

Tuhani: Nopher - Yea and some of the stuff can be made by a LW for tanking

nthanmrris: and people who do play more, should be rewarded for the time and effort put in

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Dude

Explicit: Hardcore gamers only

Tuhani: At least a bear tank

П1BӨЯ: wat this about lol

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Agreed @ Lionheart

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: lol hybrids is what this game is about and modifying your raid to think outside the box and be dynamic and not cookie cutters

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Oooh, thats actually a really good ting

Moox: The tier 6 warrior was leaked to the burning crusader.

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Though, blizz would have hella issues trying to balance that

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: NORMAL GEARED 70's - In Naxx?

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Ideas?

[PeniX] Madix-3: Yeah ranger that kame into my mind. Just like shakling my fling mount ^^ (This sucks also. Why is my Flying mount 60% (for 1K gold) but my Epic is 100% (for 1k Gold also)

*RsCt*DraGon: yes

Tuhani: Possible

Explicit: Fun!

Moox: There is also a tier6 warrior set for nagas and goblins in itemviewer.

Explicit: Make it happen nick!

nthanmrris: We did a PuG naxx, in one week, got to Sapphiron

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Well, I roll druid, so I'm getting flight formn

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: *form

Revo: very true, but for all priests mainly to be shadow now... most druids to be feral... most shamans being elemntal with their isnane dps... these are the games only healers... dont you think something is wrong there?

*RsCt*DraGon: I agree with Nopher on the main floor, some 25 man raid drops are a downgrade from karazhan drops

nthanmrris: I think there was 24 or 26 of us

Tuhani: Black Temple i thought though there was an attunment

nthanmrris: There is

Loz: I don't see much point in epic flight form, it still costs 5000G AND a massive questline, you might as well just fork out the extra 200 for a windrider

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: haha *remembers April Fool's*

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: Revo strong point there

kumbol: it was April fool :P

GhOsT: yea there is

nthanmrris: he is talking about gear comparision

[Xfire] SDaria: ***** NEXT QUESTION *****

i know kara is a big gear check, is there the same kind of thing in the 25mans or not? maybe it's that Kara is what most people will do, and blizzard decided to cool the gear off from that point because only the hardcore players will do it

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: I think that a full level 70 raid to naxx, normal geared - Would actually be better then some TBC Raids.

Tuhani: So Nopher just voided himself

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Yes?

lil batty: well classes that heave healing should sacrifice for the PvE guild, so that they can get rly ubah gear to use later with whatever specc they want

Moox: Gruul is a gear check.

lil batty: healing is a blessing but it's also a curse :)

[PeniX] Madix-3: those 25 should be to Khara what MC was to ZG i guess

Revo: On my druid i changed to feral and i felt like i was being so selfish... i was speccing to see bigger numbers, preventing others from progressing and having a good time. But then i realised that they wouldnt think the same if we changed positions so f**k em :P

*RsCt*DraGon: Karazhan isn't a gear-check

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: The issue with raids is that, as often said, only hardcore players can really roll with them

nthanmrris: I think they put Kara in for those who don't have enough time for 25 man and whatnot

Tuhani: Gruul and Kara are gear checks

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Kara's frustrating

Moox: If you dont have enough +healing when he gets to grow 10 then its a wipe.

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: Someone in those classes needs to say in the guilds I am resto / holy for the guild and that falls on a leadership roll in the guild and they soudl be rewarded for their sacrifice

*RsCt*DraGon: it's more strategy/class skill

Avre: Skosiris: We have people in my guild who like to collect sets, I do that myself to be honest. I just vendored prophecy to make bank room, but I used to wear it as a badge of completion around the cities.

nthanmrris: Kara is by no means a gear check

Explicit: Kharazan is managable for most guilds i think

Loz: I disagree, the huntsman is definatley a gear check

Moox: Nightbane is a gear check.

Yoshi: kara is not a gear check...

Explicit: After that it seems to be getting harder

Tuhani: You cant walk into Kara with greens and expect to beat the instance

Revo: i completely agree mayhem

[PeniX] Madix-3: Attumen IS a gearcheck

nthanmrris: I do have fun with Opera tho

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: You want a gear check? Try taking on Grulloc in Blades edge by yourself, see how long you last.

[PeniX] Madix-3: Take a "green" warrior and die endlessly

nthanmrris: We downed him in 4 min last night, how is that a gear check?

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Then ill tell you what your gears like

Revo: people who give up their time in wow to let others progress and help them see bigger numbers should be rewarded

Loz: Thank you Madix, someone agrees with me >.

Tuhani: Explicit but how many times did those guilds run instances to be gear though?

Tuhani: And be ready for Kara

[PeniX] Madix-3: Well explicit thats because the Guild changes

Avre: Moox: very true

[PeniX] Madix-3: *changed

Explicit: Lots of Quest rewards

*RsCt*DraGon: so it's not like gear-check for karazhan, for 25 man raids, i think you may need good drops like full t4 for eaxmple

Moox: If a tank doesnt have 490 def and mitigation then its a wipe. If a healer has less than 1000 +heal its a wipe.

[Xfire] SDaria: ***** NEXT QUESTION *****

how has your guild handled the expansion changes (the heavy attunements and the 25-man limits)? we've seen lots of drama in the smaller guilds, have you seen drama or has it been smooth?

Explicit: And ofcourse some herioc instances

Revo: i raid because i enjoy raiding, but many people dont. They wanted to get better gear so they can own in pvp. So the lack of good gear dropping now is putting these people off from wow... which is why u see many people quitting

nthanmrris: for the most part if you have a decent amout of 70 quest rewards and a few pieces of your dungeon set 3, kara is cake

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: Hang on, how many of you can actually say you ENJOYED attuning for Kara, then being disapointed when you finally got in?

=GvL=Urban: ...

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Well, obviously, larger guilds have an easier time organizing raids.

=GvL=Urban: not me

Loz: Attuning for Kara is a bitch

Revo: Trying to get a casual guild attuned to kara was like pulling teeth

Loz: xD

[PeniX] Madix-3: We didnt have a drama

lil batty: on my server i've noticed that 60% of the PvE guilds have fallen appart, only the best have stayed together

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: The fact that the smaller raids are now in effect just make it easier

Moox: We actually split our guild when TBC came out.

Tuhani: To answer the question we had 2 Kara raid teams and would swap out

Loz: Oh yes Revo, tell me about it >.

*RsCt*DraGon: For our guild, it has been great, we help each other on attunements and we are progressing on raids. Though last week, sadly, out main leader demoted and now we have a new leader, but we are still doing great on raids, andon attunements we are looking forward to help each other. And now because of less peoplpe on a raid, we can easily make 2 raids going at the same time or plan 2 groups running at certain days and hours which is a great thing. At 60, it was 40 man, which was a bit difficult to form 2 groups. So yeah, life at 70 is better at raiding

Explicit: You get people with the same limits and ideas together

green drake: i think the kharzhan pre quest is pretty much frustration and hell when u get too black morass and many got stuck there for weeks

Revo: The very annoying thing about 10 mans is that youll either have too many people or too little people to do it. The class requirements are so set in stone, in comparison to 40 mans, to which your raid setup could be very versitile depending on hwo you had in your guild

Tuhani: Drale = You have to learn real quick the strats and BM is done in 45 mins tops

Moox: Black morass was the easiest part of Kara attune in my opinion. I found SL to be harder.

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: I tried to make a guild, but almost everyone who signed the charter left as soon as it was registered. After a while, almost everyone on the list had been gone for 2 weeks or more.

Loz: I must say I really dislike the Black Morass instance, It puts far too much pressure on speed rather than patience and understanding

[PeniX] Madix-3: Yeah also our Guildleader Died IRL

lil batty: TBC has been a chance for teamwork, helping eachother, love and all that kinds of things, but it has also been the cause of guilds falling apart

[PeniX] Madix-3: Cancer. very sad :/

*RsCt*DraGon: I'm sry to hear that Madix

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Sorry to hear that Mad

Lionheart: My friend described Black Morass as "annoying"

Avre: Attunements have not been terrible, I agree with mickeschramm there. Heroics are not as rewarding as I imagined them to be, and the rewards for healers are not worth the effort.

Tuhani: Moox your right SL is very very hard tog et a whole group to do it. Its a long drawn out instance

[PeniX] Madix-3: Yeah was a hit to all of us, knew each other IRL and stuff

Avre: My sympathy Madix.

Avre: =(

*RsCt*DraGon: SL is very hard to get comparable to Kara

Moox: Too much trash.

GhOsT: well in the new expansion they should either rise the rraid limit to like 30

Explicit: Just remember the Onyx attunement

Explicit: That i found annoying

Avre: Ony was a pain. ;-)

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Oh god.

Moox: Ony :/

nthanmrris: Onyxia is fun!

Revo: I like attunements because its nice to work to get somewhere... separating the dedicated from the uncaring. But then yu realise you cant get enough people attuned

Tuhani: Ony wasnt too bad. It was fun

Explicit: Khara was not that annoying, just hard

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: wtb new onyxia attunement

[PeniX] Madix-3: Karaattunementannoyagepercent>>>>>>>>>Onyxiaattunementannoyagepercant ^^

Moox: Marshall Windsor.

Explicit: Hard is the way it should be, it IS endgame experience

[PeniX] Madix-3: *percent

kumbol: Stupid Blackrodck Depths :F

Tuhani: You cant tell me kara attunment wasnt as bad as ony

Loz: I did ony attunement, never ran ony, and then TBC came out >.

Tuhani: Kara attun - the hardest part BY FAR was was tge SL part

Explicit: At all times some attunements are a pain

Tuhani: SV and Arc were caje

Explicit: But its all personal

Explicit: They cannot make an attunement that suits all people

Revo: Consortium... your making profit from them

Explicit: Seems impossible to me

Revo: the more months your exalted with the consortium the richer you get

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: What would be awesome would be class-specific attunements

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Certain lines for certain classes

Loz: I really enjoyed SV, apart from locks who insisted on stacking slow DoTs on the water tanks

Revo: i was the first person to have earthwarden on my server was awesome

Revo: lol loz, so many people are so idiotic they cant change their fire from a target to another, its ridiculous

Tuhani: But what im getting at your all comparing Ony to Kara and Kara was a whole lot easier

Tuhani: your didnt have to do a full run of 2 of the insances

Revo: and they get pissy when you get annoyed at them for wiping you

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Well, the attunements

*RsCt*DraGon: kara was a lot easier off course

*RsCt*DraGon: right now because more people are doing the 70 dungeons, it is easier to get a group

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Well, yeah, there's more of a demand

Loz: That's so true, Revo >

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: We need good priests on mine (Wildhammer)

Explicit: for isntance: 5 lvl 62 doint ramps is way more fun that 4 lvl 62 and a lvl 70

Tuhani: All i ever see is people looking for Tanks

[PeniX] Madix-3: I never asked and never was asked to help in a lowlvl instance since TBC

Explicit: And it costs you XP too

Tuhani: LF Tank Heroics

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: all the eggs in one basket isn't a good idea,,then your MT rolls out and your left holding the bag having to train up a whole new versus a squad of 4 or 5 mTs per say

Tuhani: Yea but you shouldnt have to rely on 1 person

Tuhani: you should have more then 1 tank trained more like 3-4

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Arg. Not in the question room.

Revo: lol after 70 life is alot different from lvl 60... at lvl 60 everyone knew the standard and they all wanted to rise up from that. at70 people are still a little confused as to what is good and not good. This wasnt helped through the insane quest rewards

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Yeah.

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: That's because 60 was the standard for a little over 2 years

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: people got their information, collated it from different sites, and new exactly what to do

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: *3

Revo: at 60 people knew that an item with 150+ healing was amazing... but when you hear about something with 300+ healing in TBC you start to wonder if its auctually worth it

Explicit: and people were hitting 60 long after the first ones

*RsCt*DraGon: life after 70 is very different from 60. There are more dungeons to test out and more things to try out, such as heroic instances and arenas and working towards the epic flying mount.

Moox: Too much primal farming. Not enough standing around in Ironforge.

Dhomochevsky: lol epic flying not worth it

Tuhani: There are more things at 70 to keep the players involved

Explicit: But still, i find 70 more grinding rep and gold and mats then at 60

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Now that 70 is a little over 4 months old, there's still some confusion about what's needed.

*RsCt*DraGon: rep factions

Revo: yup

Revo: very true ranger

Tuhani: This is what we would call a new age of WoW

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: True.

Dhomochevsky: just whore out karazhan

Moox: 70 is all rep grinds and primal farming.

Tuhani: Its not all about the rep farming its about learning ot work with PuGs if you want to succeed

Revo: they need to delay the release of the black temple... most guilds havent even gotten past gruul yet

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: If and when there's a level 80 cap, when people hit it, they'll be like "... wtf do I do now?"

Dhomochevsky: mm yeh

Tuhani: if you dont have guild or people who you can rely on

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: A year later, they will know what to do.

Revo: the balck temple should be kept until most guilds have gotten SSC under control

Loz: yes, at least

Dhomochevsky: knowing what todo is wait for patches for new areas

Dhomochevsky: lol

Dhomochevsky: like black temple

Revo: its such a huge instance that in terms of lore is gonna be massive... but it shouldnt just be rushed out

nthanmrris: I do feel like we are being overwhelmed by instances

Tuhani: Black Temple wont be hit at least i dont think till SCC and the eye have been completed

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Yeah

LeXuS: well did most guilds have mc under con troll when BWL came out ??

Lionheart: They should raise the levelling cap to 100 and make it harder to level cos in some cases, the getting to the end game level is a better experience than being at the end game level

Tuhani: Look at the new stuff coming out with BC

*RsCt*DraGon: Hyjal and Black temple are gonna be huge, like BWL and Naxx

Loz: I don't see much point in adding tons of additional content which people won't be using yet, they might as well fix all the itemization problems they created

Tuhani: Lionheart why dont we just call the game Diablo

Lionheart: Or they should make tons of stuff for the end game level

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: A few times when patches are released, sometimes I was like "Sh*t! I shoulda leveled there!"

Revo: its a huge gap between hardcore guilds and super hardcore guilds like nihilum, curse and DnT

Revo: usually about 5 or 6 bosses now

Explicit: So what it comes down to: Just because its new makes it different, but if u look at what happend when 60 was the cap and just new, there is no difference at all?

Lionheart: I don't know what Diablo's like :)

Dhomochevsky: they should add more rare mobs. like mobs where u can use items to spawn them for sweet gear

Tuhani: Dont forget Death Wish - On Cho'Gall getting Horde 1sts

Moox: Primal Nethers need better drop rates.

nthanmrris: ugh I hate those people who won't die to progress

Tuhani: But look when Naxx was released

Tuhani: Only the hardcores were really in there

Dhomochevsky: yup

Revo: but they were all going in at the same time

Moox: Most people were in AQ40...

Dhomochevsky: only hardcore can really do new stuff. other ppl cant

Tuhani: Moox - Not true

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Well, yeah, that's because 60 was the standard.

Revo: All the hardcore guilds were all going in at the same time... they werent divided between 3 different raiding zones

Revo: it was like a race

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Everyone knew what to do, because Thottbot, allakazam, and wowhead all had information

Explicit: Even if it was the standard

Tuhani: Yea until Naxx came out and it was a race

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: I remember watching someone ding the first 60 on our server, aand I was stunned, thinking how lon git would take me to get that high

Explicit: It only became that after some time

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: If the games were played like they were supposed to, those sites wouldn't exist

Revo: but at this rate its like... wow someone just downed a boss in ssc... noone really knows anything about it... so gz... but meh

Moox: Cthun wasnt downed for months.

Tuhani: to see who could kill Kel'Thuzad

Explicit: So if we are 6months further, 70 will be the standerd

Tuhani: 70 will be standard

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Yeah, exactly

Tuhani: and there will be Kara PuGs

Revo: but with the black temple, only about 5 guilds world wide will be in there for about 2 months before normal hardcore guilds start to get down vash and the eye guy

Tuhani: Gruul pugs

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: And 10 months from the next expansion release, 80 will be the new standard.

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: That is, if there's a new level cap

Dhomochevsky: prolly will

Explicit: and then, if a new release comes, all will just go over asgain

Dhomochevsky: all blizzard mmo's have been to 90

Spencer: It definitely will. But that's to be expected.

Tuhani: Black Ranger - Blizz has came out and said there will be another Exp but when

Dhomochevsky: like diablo

Tuhani: Were not sure

Revo: having a new level cap in les than 2 years would be ridiculous

Tuhani: Diablo was 99

Dhomochevsky: yeh

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Still

Revo: it would take atleast 1 year and a half for people to get used to 70

Loz: I'd be surprised if there wasn't another expansion cap, but I can't think where new areas would expand to, in terms of lore. What do you lot think?

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: That's coming close to doubling the original contend of WoW

Chris: Diablo ftw =D

nthanmrris: I don't agree Skosiris

Dhomochevsky: corse diablo was basicly get lvl80 thenp pvp lol

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: great point from Sko

Tuhani: Blizz is smart with what they are doing. They are bringing out new things

Tuhani: to keep the Hardcores involved

nthanmrris: Why should I have comparable gear to someone who plays 1 or 2 hours a day?

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Instead of releasing it all at once.

Revo: skosiris, thats what blizzard would say, but its not auctually how it is IMO

Dhomochevsky: not much new stuff. karazhan gets old

Spencer: Lore is never a problem, I think, Loz, because you can always add another dimension, or an underground area.

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: If they released it all at once, WoW would be dying.

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: casual gaming will promote more WoW usage and more people in other portions of the game

Revo: the only people doing heroics, arena play at the top level and raiding, are still hardcore players

Tuhani: Exactly Ranger

Tuhani: People would be overwhelmed

Tuhani: and not know what they were doing. They woudl be like I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DOO!

Revo: TBC was a bit overwhelming

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Yeah.

Loz: Underground, that's true although I do think eventualy the whole thing will become saturated, and Blizz will have a hard time thinking up more content.

Tuhani: But that was a lot of conent also

Revo: i remember walking thorugh the portal and wanting to go like 50 different places

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: There is a minor case of that at the launch of BC

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: "How do I socket item?"

Tuhani: Yes with all the new intersting things

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: But now that we're in the future, people learn.

Spencer: Well you know, Loz, they DID say they had another MMO planned, after they felt WoW was a complete game and all could stay for a good 5 years, and move on to the new MMO they made after that.

Revo: Molten Bore ftl

Tuhani: Right now though it seems on my server its all about the Heroics

Lionheart: lol molten bore

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Though, some people learn slower than others...

Revo: gief heroic deadmines.. that place was amazing

Tuhani: Lol.

Spencer: So it's not like they're exactly scratching their heads and worrying where they will be expanding the lore to.

*RsCt*DraGon: lol MC

*RsCt*DraGon: :D

Dhomochevsky: i solo'd mc

Dhomochevsky: xD

Loz: Nah, wailing caverns mate :D Love that instance

Loz: The Murloc at the end.. Pure genius

Dhomochevsky: wc is soo long

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Yep!

Dhomochevsky: funny its a low lvl instance

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: WC is long as hell

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: But still

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: MURLOC!

Tuhani: WC can die lol

Lionheart: Think outside the box: Instead of instances involving killing monsters, how about instances or raids involving other things such as.... I don't know, dancing?

Revo: tbh they should have rereleased naxx as a standard 25 man for your first raiding experience in tbc. so many guilds didnt do it, and it was somewhat imperative for teamwork skills. the gear outweighs stuff got in kara zhan so why not?

Moox: WC was hell.

Chris: Heroic Ragefire Chasm?

Dhomochevsky: lol

Tuhani: Anyone have the Murlaco's Shirt? lol

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: I agree, Lionheart

Tuhani: From JINX?

*RsCt*DraGon: pff, VC ftw, i would love deadmines heroic

[LR]Nopher: trust me, do some trash in SC around Tidewalker

[LR]Nopher: and you wont be missing those damn murlocs!

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: An entire instance devoted to something else besides trash

Dhomochevsky: i think the fact that rare mobs drop blues with random enchants is dumb

Spencer: Lionhart, I think platform action would be some pretty cool stuff. ;) But some classes wouldn't be able to compete correctly.

Dhomochevsky: have a select item that drops

[PeniX] Madix-3: I never got why vancleeve is weaker than some Hungry prisonmates ^^

Revo: They need to market Naxx again as a viable 25 man

-=MAYHEM=-RIG: Great job Xfire

Tuhani: Ranger if you want an instance not devoted to trash why not head to Ony or Gruul or Mag then

Moox: Naxx gear isnt worth it any more.

Nick/ButtF***ingChrist: That the end?

Revo: Thanks for the debate, was good fun

Loz: That would be cool, but do you think many people would bother with it?

Dhomochevsky: well thats why they made karazhan low people amount

Alexandrius: Thanks for the debate

Lionheart: Meeting is adjourned.

Tuhani: Thanks for the debate

Moox: Atiesh was replaced by 70 blues.

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Yes.

[Xfire-TTHS] Black Ranger: Props to y'all.

*RsCt*DraGon: thanks for all the discussion guys

green drake: nice debate thank all of u for being serious and all that