The Two-Handed Sword
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Xfire Debate Club 3rd Meeting: Life in WoW After Level 70
April 11th, 2007 (Main Floor Transcript)

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Welcome to the 3rd meeting of the Xfire Debate Club, where will discuss Life After 70 in WoW!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: We are very excited to have you all with us today!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Remember, Xfire users should be debating the topics in the Open Debate Room - The Open Debate Room is not for Spam. It will be moderated strictly. User representing themselves intelligently will be invited into the Xfire Debate Club Clan: The Two Handed Sword. Invites will be sent out within a week after the Debate. Invites will be scarce.

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Basic chatting should go in Unofficial Chatter

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Q&A in the last 15 minutes will go in the Question Room (room invites for Question Room will go out later)

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Please join me in giving a virtual round of applause to our special guests!

We are especially happy to have with us today:

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox:

* Teza -

* Skosiris -

* Nopher - Last Resort Guild

[Wowhead] Skosiris: 'glad to be here! Thanks for the invitation :)

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: BTW, Awake from Nihilum Guild had a really important raid today so he can't show up, but he sends his regards...

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: he's going after a fixed vashj i hear

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: And many of you know of our moderator today - Mike Schramm from WoW Insider - ***more applause****

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: So after each person introduces themselves, I will hand things over to Mike. Have fun everyone!!!!

[LR]Nopher: Hello everyone! I’m Nopher of Last Resort. I’m level 70 and play a feral Druid.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: This is Mike Schramm and I'm co-lead blogger on WoW Insider at I play a resto shaman as my main.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: skosiris? teza?

[WoR] Teza: Hello, i am Teza from WorldofRaids, also playing a rogue level 70 iN Curse

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Hello I'm Skosiris, a recently retired level 70 Warlock, now a level 38 Blood Elf Paladin (they are quite rare). I'm the main developer of, the largest respected World of Warcraft item/quest/talent website in the world! ;)

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: great! thanks everyone for coming today and thanks to xfire for hosting another wow debate

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: first things first, the debate is about "life after 70," so first question: what are you doing with your life after 70?

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: sko is leveling an alt i guess :)

[WoR] Teza: Mostly Raiding in Serpentshrine Cavern and the Eye with my guild

[LR]Nopher: I’m busy with high-end raiding, working on The Eye now and Lady Vashj :)

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: so lots of raiding-- i'm hearing arena and pvp in the other rooms, too

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Well I had a lot of fun on my previous level 70s, but I decided to accept the challenge and populate the world with another Blood Elf Paladin. For me, life after 70 means re-rolling an alt with fellow friends and enjoying the game all over again.

[LR]Nopher: Yeah there's loads to do once you hit level 70, its where the real WoW starts after all!

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: let's start with pvp-- there's lots of twinking going on before 70, but the real action has been in arenas lately. has the arena setup been a success?

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Arenas are a lot of fun. A lot of controversy is starting to flush itself out with certain class combinations being basically unstoppable. MS warriors + Paladin combo is proving to be the most feared arena class in 2v2/3v3

[LR]Nopher: It got a pretty good start and it's surely a lot of fun, it gives more meaning to PvP compared to before and it has a lot potential

[WoR] Teza: PvP with arena definitely became better, since they are scaling gear each season

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: professional gaming has started to look at arenas too-- 3v3 is in the world series of gaming, and 5v5 teams are being sponsored. do you think blizzard has done what they wanted to, and made skill the indicator of success?

[LR]Nopher: I think Blizzard is putting a lot of reasources into the Arena and Arena system right now.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: lots of good discussion in the open debate room as well about that

[WoR] Teza: its a bit too early to say, i guess the results of this first arena season will bring us more materials

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: let's hit up raiding then-- that's the big draw for endgame, it seems. Teza you're working through SC and Last resort is working through the eye, so what's the secret of success in the new endgame?

[LR]Nopher: Teamplay and a lot consumables? ;)

[WoR] Teza: communication and dedication, and.... consumables ye :)

[LR]Nopher: you have a bunch of guilds right now waiting for Lady Vashj to be fixed (and the remaining bosses in The Eye)

[LR]Nopher: you mentioned earlier that Nihilum is going for a fixed Vashj right now, and if it turns out to be true

[WoR] Teza: then she dies tonight

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: how often do you all find yourselves wiping on bosses before you have taken them down? is it a long learning process, or is it just a matter of "getting it" once?

[LR]Nopher: yeah Lady Vashj dies tonight if she's fixed, and we'll have another C'Thun on our hands (as in loads of guilds killing her this reset)

[Wowhead] Skosiris: While I like the idea of the WSVG being in WoW's Arenas, right now I don't think it is the right time. Classes are extremely biased that it gives a huge advantage to the "flavor of the month" style of WoW characters. Right now Warriors are extremely overpowered in Arena PVP, and it just doesn't seem fair to reward those who have advantages that others do not

[LR]Nopher: we in Last Resort surely wipe for a while before we get a boss down. The strategy becomes rather clear pretty early and then it's just about execution

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Raids are always extremely fun, however, the Alchemy "nerf" that recently happened was not. Right now if you are the guild alchemist, your pre-raid life is usually hell. You are stuck as the red headded stepchild when it comes to equipping the guild with potions. Blizzard should instead find a useful reason for an Alchemist to be one in the first place, perhaps some sort of exclusive buff or such.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: consumables are an interesting issue, because there's always people out there that will take whatever they can get-- the more buffs the better.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: if you nerf bosses, people will still keep using consumables, i think, and if you nerf consumables, everyone will suffer, so what's the solution?

[LR]Nopher: yes of course, and encounters are tuned around it. Add to that the relatively low power gain you get from gear upgrades and you got what we have today

[LR]Nopher: Blizzard have several options for fixing the consumables issue, one is to remove flasks altogether (which they wont) and another is to let elixirs last beyond death like flasks do today

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: that's an interesting idea

[WoR] Teza: or make the alchemy spec to proc x10

[LR]Nopher: but by the looks of it they're just going to restrict elixir usage a bit, hopefully though there's more to it then that (like flasks being classified as an elixir)

[LR]Nopher: hehe Teza ;)

[Wowhead] Skosiris: I agree, raid gear is really horrible and there isn't much incentive to raid VS non-end game blues as well as PVP

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Another thing I don't like about raids is that classes still get pigeonholed into a specific spec. WoW is meant to be fun for all, but when a guildmaster tells you that your Paladin must heal, things start to become less fun and more like work. Every talent tree should have a place in a raid. Right now they simply do not.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: another big issue, of course, is class balance-- D&T is famously using paladins to heal and priests to dps-- is there something wrong with that?

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: you read my mind sko

[Wowhead] Skosiris: I think Alchemists should get something that is not able to be traded. Maybe they get a buff when making a potion, maybe gold magically appears, just something. Right now a profession that can have 100% of its value sold/traded really turns your character into a tool.

[LR]Nopher: I see nothing wrong with it, guilds will just like with consumables go for min/max and today Paladin dps (dont hate me!) sucks and you can only find minor use for a prot pala

[Wowhead] Skosiris: For instance, blacksmiths get BOP weapons/armor, what do Alchemists get that is unique onto themselves? Nothing.

[LR]Nopher: add to that the fact that Paladin healing rocks and its a nobrainer, sure Blizzard should do a better job with balancing but its not always as easy as it seems (nor a priority)

[WoR] Teza: Nothing wrong with that, hopefully the next patch will fix some classes problems in end game raiding, so they can be more wanted

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: but if priests are meant to be the main healing class, and paladins are meant to be healer tanks, doesn't that mean the priorities are wrong

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: do you guys use paladins to mainheal and shadow priest on raids?

[Wowhead] Skosiris: I completely agree: Paladins must get more usefulness when it comes to DPS. Right now Paladins are known as loldps. The Retribution tree needs to be massively reworked to give them viable DPS in end-game raid and PVP situations. All other hybrids have great DPS, so should Paladins.

[LR]Nopher: we use paladins as healers (with the exception of one speccing prot for Tidewalker!) and priests as shadow priests yes, although we do bring one holy priest along in general

[WoR] Teza: we dont use any tankadins actually, they are healing spec, priests are like 50/50, half of them are healing and rest is shadow spec

[LR]Nopher: it's 50/50 for us as well with the priests, but as it is now there's no reason whatsoever to bring more then one holy priest along

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: see to me that's off-- if I roll a priest looking to heal, I want to heal, not be told by a guild that I should be shadow so a paladin can heal

[WoR] Teza: more like 70% of them being shadow spec

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Nopher, I don't really agree with that at all. Each class should be able to choose to play as they want. Pigeonholing a Paladin to a healer is BS IMO.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: right sko

[LR]Nopher: yes I agree they should be able to play the role they want (you're talking to a feral druid here mr!) but as it is now

[LR]Nopher: the different classes need to be viable under that role, and they aint

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: i know why you're doing it (because you want to min/max), but that tells me something is wrong with the game that Blizzard needs to fix

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: right

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: let's talk about raid loot for a bit-- so far, the loot we've seen from 25 man raids doesn't seem to be much better than the epics coming out of the heorics and karazhan. is that the case?

[LR]Nopher: yepp Blizzard needs to fix it for sure, just like holy priests need a boost so do retadins and to some extent protadins too

[Wowhead] Skosiris: I understand some classes are more gimp than their counterparts, but limiting another characters "fun factor" because Blizzard hasn't tuned things just doesn't seem fair.

[WoR] Teza: yes, unfortunately thats the case, just take a look at paladin gloves which dropped on Lady Vashj

[WoR] Teza: its a sidegrade from Karazhan gloves

[LR]Nopher: depends on what your goal as a guild is I guess. If you aim to be the best in Arenas you abuse MS warriors (like you mentioned), if you're doing PvE you want to maximize your raids potential

[Wowhead] Skosiris: So if it was me running the show, I would bite the bullet and my vote would be in favor of a player's decision to play how he wants his class to be played. I rather enable the freedom of the user than restrict his freedom for the security of the group. "Those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither" is a quote that comes to mind.

[WoR] Teza: i am looking forward to the socket/stats changed on Tiers 5 armor in the upcoming patch

[LR]Nopher: hopefully Blizzard is adressing the gear issue in 2.1

[LR]Nopher: idd

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: teza and nopher what percentage of your gear comes from 25 mans now?

[WoR] Teza: 30%

[LR]Nopher: my kitty gear is like 40% perhaps, bear is less

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: and is that because you haven't gotten more or because you've just passed on sidegrades?

[WoR] Teza: mostly passed on sidegrades

[LR]Nopher: well some of the stuff that drop aint even sidegrades :( I mean, the best druid tanking wrists for example is a quest reward

[Wowhead] Skosiris: The loot from 25 mans is really starting to pour into the community. I can see this via all the new information uploaded to by our users. Overall, based on this, I can easily say that a lot of people are running 25mans for the loot factor, be it better or not.

[WoR] Teza: some armor parts from 25 mans are even a downgrade from karazhan gear

[LR]Nopher: yepp

[LR]Nopher: I mean, assuming that Blizzard doesnt do anything to the gear issue now and Black Temple requires no attunement

[LR]Nopher: a guild might as well start with Black Temple and skip Gruul + Mag + SC + The Eye

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: i know kara is a big gear check, is there the same kind of thing in the 25mans or not? maybe it's that Kara is what most people will do, and blizzard decided to cool the gear off from that point because only the hardcore players will do it

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Nopher, do you think some people raid for loot they don't need, just so they can have all the sets possible in the game?

[WoR] Teza: it was before the recent hotfixes on some encounters mike

[LR]Nopher: Im sure some do it, but I think most people raid because they enjoy raiding

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: my casual guild is still having problems in there but it's probably just because we're usually drunk :)

[LR]Nopher: hehe :p

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: last question on raiding: how has your guild handled the expansion changes (the heavy attunements and the 25-man limits)? we've seen lots of drama in the smaller guilds, have you seen drama or has it been smooth?

[LR]Nopher: It's been smooth for us at least. The attunements got so hyped up with the progression charts floating around before the launch but it feels almost natural to do things in the order needed

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Well me, personally, I re-rolled a new class because, at times, the drama can be really thick. I'm here to play the game, not make a full time job out of it :)

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Oh wait, it IS my fulltime job (running Wowhead).

[LR]Nopher: the 25-man raid limit is a really good thing and it didnt cause much of a problem for us, we've even been recruiting a bit lately to fill up free spots

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: yeah i didn't think the attunements were that bad overall, i never ran a dungeon because i didn't want to but had to for attunment

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: our horde guild has been extremely helpful to our up and coming paladins too sko :) hopefully you got some of that goodwill from yours

[LR]Nopher: like someone mentioned in the open date room, the Karazhan 10-man limit has been more of a problem then the 25-man limit so far :p

[WoR] Teza: it has been smooth in my guild (Curse), since it was planned to not kick anyone, we didnt recruit much since the limit change, also the addition of arena allowed members not raiding to be busy

[LR]Nopher: open debate*

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: how did you deal with squeezing 10 people into kara?

[WoR] Teza: we were running 3 groups of 10 players and we set a rotation for the remaining players

[LR]Nopher: we split up officers / raid leaders and tried to make as many groups as possible. In the start though we tried to rotate some people in to make as many as possible happy

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: i know we're almost ready for questions from the open debate room, but I have two recommendations to ask of you guys-- the other things you can do after 70 are grinding rep and picking up old quests. What are the reps you wanted to get right away, and what questlines did you mak sure to do?

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Teza, Nopher, do you guys send the same people in, or do you mix it up so everybody can have an equal chance? For example, if your guild has 10 tanks, do you only use the same tank over and over?

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Also, does your guilds have a constant flow of low level people (new players, or even alts) being invited and assisted with? Or do you only keep your existing, high level players?

[LR]Nopher: Skosiris: Last Resort has less then 40 members so it's been the same tanks all along. The classes where we have too many members (mages) we've tried to rotate equally or swap for specific bosses

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: sko, my guild runs with a regular main tank and a main healer per group just so we can keep them geared well, everybody else can switch out

[Wowhead] Skosiris: I ask because I think a guild that constantly is having new life into it is a more fun guild. You have endless opportunity to educate and help lower level players, even those only at level 1.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: great. let's take some questions from the open debate room then-- we'll have to do these quickfire :)

[WoR] Teza: we only keep existing high level players sko

[LR]Nopher: We run with the same high level players all the time. We have a very active alt guild where we more or less just invite people, friends and such regardless of level or things like that

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: Explicit: Question: do you feel the "after lvl 70 life" to be alot different from after lvl 60?

[WoR] Teza: a little because of the arena addition

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: personally i don't-- the scenery is different and there's fewer dungeons to run

[LR]Nopher: it felt like there was a lot more stuff to do when I reached level 70 compared to when I reached level 60 way back. In general there's more stuff to do now since Blizzard decided to screw up itemization

[LR]Nopher: so there's more gear to collect!

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: i like this one... green drake: how much time do u hawe too spend in front of the computer in a week too be in one of the best eu guilds

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Well for some perspectives, it is the same thing: grind grind grind, ding 70. Raid raid raid. But at the same time, the opportunity to help lower levels is even MORE fun because you are even MORE powerful. I recently ran some level 25s through SFK on my level 70 warlock and it was the most amazing fun ever.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: or just how often do you all raid every week :)

[WoR] Teza: 5-6 evenings per week if everything worked as intended, which isnt the case, currently we clear everything but Lady Vashj in 2 evenings

[LR]Nopher: I spent a lot of time at the launch of TBC to get to 70 and finish all the rep grinds, but once there I've raided 5 days a week on average, a lot less now though since we rotate among us feral druids in the guild and there's less stuff to kill (due to unbalanced encounters)

[LR]Nopher: last reset I raided two nights, thats it

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: how many hours for a raid?

[LR]Nopher: we raid from 19 to 00, severtime

[LR]Nopher: servertime*

[WoR] Teza: we are also working on some TK (the eye) encounters like Phoenix God

[WoR] Teza: 19h to 00 or 01

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: Greg-Boyington[CotC]: Question: Does you think that those people who were hard core raiders previous to the expansion with top notch gear kinda got screwed over and do you think there should have been some other way to benefit those old hardcore raiders?

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: i don't think they got "screwed over"-- that's what an expansion does

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Wow has definitely changed as a game though with regards to raiding. It used to be that ONLY raiders who played the game 60+ hours a week could have the best gear. Now, with the Burning Crusade and PVP rewards, everybody including the social/small-time gamer can get great gear. I personally love that. What do you die hard raiders think?

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: good point sko-- people who never had tier 1 or tier 2 can now get better gear through quests, so for them it's a great thing

[LR]Nopher: initially I was a bit sad over the fact that all my gear would be worthless (and it is now) but today I dont feel that I got screwed over due to that. The only thing that leaves me with a "screwed over" feeling is having a lot of raiding content thats impossible to kill since it havent been tested and instead of fixing that content

[LR]Nopher: Blizzard is working on patch 2.1

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: finally, i really like this question from Madix-3: Another Question: Heroic Molten Core? Y/N ?

[LR]Nopher: although I guess there's some hope with the Lady Vashj fix (if its true!), but its still too late imo

[WoR] Teza: well, its a good occasion to reroll a new character

[LR]Nopher: No thanks! If I never see a molten giant again in my life I'll die happy

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: I don't know if I want to go back into Molten Core with a 40 man again, but I want heroic versions of the old instances!

[WoR] Teza: No thanks

[WoR] Teza: not even Naxxramas

[Wowhead] Skosiris: I personally would prefer a heroic SFK or Ddeadmines. Those 2 places are amazing instances.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: agreed on deadmines, that would be awesome to fight through with well-geared 70s

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: Ok everybody thanks very much for coming, I think that'll do it.

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: Big thanks to our guests, Teza from World of Raids (and Curse), Nopher from Last Resort (who skipped a raid to be here), and Sko from WoW Head (can't wait to see that new logo when you all find it)

[Wowhead] Skosiris: My pleasure! Thanks a lot for the invite.

[LR]Nopher: Been fun :)

[WoR] Teza: Thanks for the invite aswell, its been a pleasure to chat with you

[WoWInsider]mikeschramm: and a very big thank-you to xfire for hosting and the biggest thanks to the "viewers" for coming out (especially the wow insider readers haha )

[Wowhead] Skosiris: Hehe, thanks Mike! Should anyone be interested in participating in our Logo Contest, you can find more information on this page:

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Thanks to all of you guys ! From Mike Schramm, co-lead blogger at, who moderated this debate; to all of our special guests and of course all of you Xfire users who attended this debate !

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: See you all very soon for more Xfire events, and in particular Debates : ]