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Xfire Debate Club 2nd Meeting: The Future of Counter-Strike
February 28th, 2007 (Main Floor Transcript)

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Welcome to the 2nd meeting of the Xfire Debate Club!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: We are very excited to have you all with us today!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Remember, Xfire users should be debating the topics in the Open Debate Room - The Open Debate Room is not for Spam. It will be moderated strictly. User representing themselves intelligently will be invited into the Xfire Debate Club Clan: The Two Handed Sword. Invites will be sent out within a week after the Debate. Invites will be scarce.

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: i repeat...

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Remember, Xfire users should be debating the topics in the Open Debate Room - The Open Debate Room is not for Spam. It will be moderated strictly. User representing themselves intelligently will be invited into the Xfire Debate Club Clan: The Two Handed Sword. Invites will be sent out within a week after the Debate. Invites will be scarce.

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Basic chatting should go in Unofficial Chatter

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Q&A in the last 15 minutes will go in the Question Room (room invites for Question Room will go out later)

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox:

Please join me in giving a virtual round of applause to our special guests!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: i can't hear you???

[Xfire]Frederic: When is the restroom break?

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: oh wait you are on mute ...

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: :-0

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: We are especially happy to have with us today:

* Maik Brodowski - Meet Your Makers

* Shaun Hetherington - EGLN

* Manuel Hoedemakers - ESL

* Sebastian Weishaar - ESL

* Trevor Schmidt - GotFrag

* Daniel Kayser - Game Trailers

* Frederic Descamps - Xfire

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: BTW, Geoff K. from Game Head had something come up and could not make it here, but he sends his regards...

[3D]Torbull: :(

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: And many of you know have heard of our moderator today - Craig Levine - ***more applause****

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: So after each person introduces themselves, I will hand things over to Craig. Have fun everyone!!!!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Prizes will be raffled at the end of the debate

[3D]Torbull: I am Craig aka Torbull - manager of team 3d, co-founder of e-sports entertainment, and loooooong time Xfire friend and user =)

EGLN.net|Shaun: I am Shaun Hetherington, CEO of EGLN - Electronic Gaming Live Networks. Proud Xfire Partner and friend

[MYM] MajorBrodo: Hi all, my name is Maik "MajorBrodo" Brodowski and I am the Sales & Media Manager of Meet Your Makers. I am looking forward to a nice debate tonight :)

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Hi everyone, my name is Trevor "Midway" Schmidt. I am Founder and VP of GotFrag.com.

sebastianweishaar: I am Sebastian Weishaar aka Baschi, founder of WC3L and nowadays Chief Tournament Director at the Electronic Sports League (ESL)

[ESL]Pesticide: Hey guys , Im Manuel Hoedemakers , currently Counter-strike manager of the Extreme Masters, part of one of the many tournaments from the Electronic Sports League , cheers from Germany

[GameTrailers]DK: Hey there everyone...Daniel Kayser, producer/writer and host for GameTrailers.com here...looking forward to the debate!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: ok i think that is it...

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: well...

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: frederic?

[Xfire]Frederic: Hi all, Bonjour, Hallo, Hola! I am Frederic Descamps, senior director at Xfire. Thanks for having me, now can someone come untie me from my desk?

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: we are ready to get started now

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Craig have at it!!

[3D]Torbull: Question: OK, to start things off let's make it easy (save the hard ones for later!). First off, so we all know where you guys stand. If you could only bring one steam game with you on a desert island, would it be source or 1.6

[Xfire]Frederic: It is exciting to see a panel of such esteemed gaming and e-sports experts

[GotFrag.com]Midway: CS 1.6

[ESL]Pesticide: as a beta 1 user i am obliged to say 1.6 :)

[MYM] MajorBrodo: CS 1.6 also

EGLN.net|Shaun: 1.6

sebastianweishaar: same here with 1.6 :)

[GameTrailers]DK: 1.6 as well

[Xfire]Frederic: CS 1.6 too but with some good bots as the island is desert, right?

EGLN.net|Shaun: lol

[3D]Torbull: No love for source already?

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: (i like source?)

[GotFrag.com]Midway: We have you in this room Craig and last I checked 3D plays Sources so that's all we need :P

[GameTrailers]DK: then you should debate with us:)

[3D]Torbull: Question: What do you think are the best elemtns lost in the developement of 1.6 to source?

[ESL]Pesticide: hitboxes and netcode :)

[MYM] MajorBrodo: the gameplay changed

[3D]Torbull: What is the SINGLE biggest difference in your opinion, Brodo?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: How the player interaction looks and feels and HLTV, although there a few things Source does better then 1.6.

EGLN.net|Shaun: well

[Xfire]Frederic: I agree with Pesticide. I wouldn t have said it so technically but basically, when i play Source, the way the weapons shoot and aim and the way the damage registers feel completely off

[MYM] MajorBrodo: hotboxes for example is one big difference

[3D]Torbull: off or different? ;]

[3D]Torbull: *crickets*

EGLN.net|Shaun: i believe

[3D]Torbull: should be a good response (open to all!)

EGLN.net|Shaun: that in 1.6, it requires more skill in aiming

[3D]Torbull: You always hear about the hitboxes being "worse" in source

EGLN.net|Shaun: where in source its point in spray. thats my opinion

[3D]Torbull: but if the hit box for you is bigger and that for your opponent is bigger then dont they both require skill

EGLN.net|Shaun: and spray*

[ESL]Pesticide: id say the amount of headshots in source compared to cs 1.6 speak for themselves

[3D]Torbull: but the reaction time versus aim become differently importan?

[3D]Torbull: just a different type of skill - no?

[Xfire]Frederic: I first thought they were 'different', not 'off' and that it would disapear after a few hours of Sources: like with any new game, I always need a few hours to really get used to the controls , gameplay and physics. However, this feeling never disapeared so I consider it is more than 'different' and mo re'off'

[3D]Torbull: Question: So while there are notable differences and changes (for better or worse) to 1.6 and source, they also added some new things. What do you guys think ar the best NEW things ADDED to source?

EGLN.net|Shaun: the new buy script at first scared me

[Xfire]Frederic: I felt the difference in gameplay between 1.6 and Source was more dramatic than between the previous versions

EGLN.net|Shaun: would of made competition alittle more difficult

[3D]Torbull: how so, shaun

EGLN.net|Shaun: and would case some interesting strat changes in the game

EGLN.net|Shaun: cause*

[Xfire]Frederic: I like the graphics and the physics but maybe it is just the child in me. :-)

[3D]Torbull: Those are QUITE impressive

[3D]Torbull: And an interesting point frederic brings up

EGLN.net|Shaun: as far as i'm concerned, anyone playing source in competition knows, that alot of a match is buying and saving

EGLN.net|Shaun: prizes keep changing

EGLN.net|Shaun: pricing*

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Source is just a continued trend by Valve to continue to make the game more friendly for the main stream audience.

[Xfire]Frederic: I remember the first hours after Source came out, most players would just spend the round shooting barrels across the map

EGLN.net|Shaun: I agree midway, but do they look at the competitive market?

EGLN.net|Shaun: and how it affects it?

[3D]Torbull: I like the HLTV better

[3D]Torbull: the trails on the players

[3D]Torbull: really cool to watch

[Xfire]Frederic: Yes i agree

[3D]Torbull: granted they need to fix the bugs

[3D]Torbull: but a nice new feature IMO

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Trails on the players is cool but there's no player names next to that same overhead. The system as a whole is missing a lot of the functionality.

[GotFrag.com]Midway: And Craig, I think you meant to say SCRTV

EGLN.net|Shaun: HLTV is better in Source in my opinion as well

[Xfire]Frederic: That s a cool feature that could potentially make CS friendlier to watch for non e-sports fans and even non gamers

[ESL]Pesticide: features dont make a game unfortunatly :) its a good start but gameplay is the first priority

[3D]Torbull: seems they included some of the stuff, but forgot some of the key elements from 1.6 / HLTV as well

[GameTrailers]DK: gameplay over graphics IMO...

[3D]Torbull: well isnt it a combination, pesticide?

[3D]Torbull: Question: That brings up an interesting point about the graphics. Can 1.6 or an old game bring CS / E-sports to the masses? Could an old game work here in the US like Starcraft owrked in korea or do we need the brightest, most spectacular graphics?

[Xfire]Frederic: To what extent do you all think Valve consider e-sports when they are making changes to the game?

[ESL]Pesticide: its a combination indeed , just not the right ingredients sofar

[3D]Torbull: not too much probably because the viewing audience isnt too large - but every major tournament organizer is fighting (or paying) for TV time

[MYM] MajorBrodo: nothing against you but i think americans need a "good looking" game :)

[3D]Torbull: haha

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Why should they? Economically there's no reason for them to consider eSports over say the general public play.

[GameTrailers]DK: I don't think graphics will play much of a role in the rise of gaming as a spectator sport...That mainly lies in the presentation aspect of the competition as well as the people involved.

[3D]Torbull: short attention spans, brodo?

[3D]Torbull: I agree, DK

[3D]Torbull: what specifically

[GotFrag.com]Midway: I don't know I think graphics can become too good, too realistic of graphics in my opinion could hurt eSports.

[3D]Torbull: how so

[ESL]Pesticide: europeans also prefer a good looking game :) we ar eno different

[GameTrailers]DK: That's something that everyone is trying to figure out right now...Can gaming work as a spectator sport...It has in varied degrees, in varied locations throughout the world, but ultimately, there is still some revolutionary "next step" that needs to happen for the masses to consider a viable entertainment option within the realm of spectator sports.

EGLN.net|Shaun: not everyone can affort a $2500 - $3000 machine

[Xfire]Frederic: I think what could bring e-sports to the masses is a comination of a great spectator friendly show and a game people can relate too. Unfortunately, as much as i love CS and e-sports, I don t think CS will bring e-sports to the masses. I think a sports console game has more chance of doing it.

[MYM] MajorBrodo: yes but you know that we have a problem with more realistic games in germany for example

[3D]Torbull: what void does that next step need to fill (dont need to say how to do it)

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Well you look at graphics that become basicall real for a lack of a better word, and the public may create too much of a connection causing a backlash towards it.

[3D]Torbull: i played the C&C3 build and that game is a resource hog too, Shaun, but it doesnt mean it stinks - just means time to upgrade =D

[GameTrailers]DK: It needs to bridge the gap between viewer and player...the REAL story behind any competition is the competitors IMO

[3D]Torbull: so its finding the right balance of lifestyle and competition?

[3D]Torbull: is that the end game or is that the first step to create interest?

sebastianweishaar: pretty much, yes

[Xfire]Frederic: I think the human interest angle could also help, as well as the excitement of real time live competition. I have not had a chance to go to ESWC yet but from what i have heard (and their videos) they have managed to really get non gamers excited about e-sports- at least for the audience present at their finals

[3D]Torbull: similar to how poker uses players to make the game more exciting and builds the personalities but for football (american or not), you can just watch the game and watch it for that versus the players

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Still if you focus too much on the competitors that leaves you with bad rules for the fans. Sometimes putting the fans interests above the competitors can be good for the sport as a whole.

[GameTrailers]DK: I would think...at least at this time...the average consumer/televison viewer would rather play than watch others play...mainly because they don't understand or appreciate the finer details of the game. So, when you can merge the competition aspect with a human aspect you might be able to promote the realm of eSports by highlighting it's stars.

[ESL]Pesticide: competition is the number one intrest for most gamers , they want to be the best at what they do , beat the machine/opponent any way they can.

[Xfire]Frederic: Has any of you tried to explain a pro CS match to your Grandma or even non gaming friends?

[MYM] MajorBrodo: yes and that's the problem. You need an easy game for the average viewer

[GameTrailers]DK: Good point Frederic

[GameTrailers]DK: My Grandma usually rocks me at CS though...

[Xfire]Frederic: haha

[3D]Torbull: CS to them though is like watching them play maj jon or however you spell it!

[3D]Torbull: all about familiarity

[3D]Torbull: and what you grew up doing

[ESL]Pesticide: Id say americans have a clear advantage explaining the game thx to american football with the concept of offensive and defensive team

[3D]Torbull: the new generation grew up with games

[3D]Torbull: isi that not prominent in europe, pesticide?

[MYM] MajorBrodo: but it will take years to "replace" the older generation

[Xfire]Frederic: I did not grow up with guns but i still got Cs prett quickly :-)

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Actually I have had to explain CS to quite a few reporters and journalists who had no clue. It's not a difficult concept the issue is more about finding a way to relate it to that person.

[3D]Torbull: so how do you relate it to them - by sports analogies?

[ESL]Pesticide: the concept is not very prominent in europe no

[GameTrailers]DK: True, more people understand games now than ever before...This is why mainstream gaming is finally entering a time when it could be accepted and the prospect of turning into something for spectators is on the rise.

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Sports Analogies or even personal stories and conflicts

[Xfire]Frederic: The CS matches are also quite hard to show, even though I would argue that they are easy to explain: two sides, a map, two bombsites, defense, offense...

[ESL]Pesticide: yep sports is our best link

[GotFrag.com]Midway: People love drama, no matter if its in eSports or a day-time TV show.

[3D]Torbull: lol

[3D]Torbull: days our lives: Team 3D edition

[ESL]Pesticide: drama lama

[3D]Torbull: just one question

EGLN.net|Shaun: lol

[3D]Torbull: WHO KILLED JR!

[GameTrailers]DK: These ARE the Days of Our Lives Midway...

[GotFrag.com]Midway: You laugh but watching your team for more then a few years Craig and one has to start wondering.

[3D]Torbull: Question: Given the recent announcements regarding game selection by some organizations and "leagues" (WCG is 1.6, ESWC is 1.6, CPL is 1.6, WSVG is TBD, and CGS is source), what do you think has the most potential for 2007, or will it vary by region?

[MYM] MajorBrodo: For 2007 it will be still CS 1.6

EGLN.net|Shaun: i agree

[GotFrag.com]Midway: CS Source will dominate 2007 and 2008

EGLN.net|Shaun: people are comfortable with 1.6 still

[Xfire]Frederic: I think Team 3D needs more drama.

[3D]Torbull: lol

[3D]Torbull: plenty already, thx!

[Xfire]Frederic: hehe

[3D]Torbull: ;]

[GotFrag.com]Midway: CS 1.6 will have events from time to time but Source will control the CS scene.

[3D]Torbull: what needs to change to make source more accepted? or can it not be?

EGLN.net|Shaun: with the larger teams moving to Source maybe

[Xfire]Frederic: One thing we have tried to do at Xfire through our live online gaming events is to help bring e-sports to more mainstream gamers

EGLN.net|Shaun: but cs has been on the stage for so long

[3D]Torbull: interesting how midway is a 1.6 fan but conceded the future to source

[GotFrag.com]Midway: It's a new game with new people, being "accepted" depends on your point of view.

EGLN.net|Shaun: then moving from that scene to a new game may be difficult

EGLN.net|Shaun: in a short time frame

[Xfire]Frederic: when we first started the live online gaming events (with 3D actually!), you would be surprised how many people did not know about even the existence of e-sports

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Source is the future only because people behind the scenes will make it the future.

[Xfire]Frederic: yet when they hear that there were 'pro gamers', they are fascinated

[ESL]Pesticide: im not sure everyone behind the scene have reached that conclusion

[MYM] MajorBrodo: maybe in 2008 miday but not in 2007

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Maybe not in Europe, but the USA the decisions have alerady been made.

[MYM] MajorBrodo: yes thats right

sebastianweishaar: 1.6. definitely has the most potential for 2007, simply because there is more tournaments, cash and competion going on still and the 1.6. community is still bigger then Source (at least in Europe)

[ESL]Pesticide: yep, we will have the good old europe vs us showdown again :)

[Xfire]Frederic: Does that mean Europe lags behind yet again?

[3D]Torbull: interesting point, shaun

[3D]Torbull: I think the limelight of a pro gamer is bigger t han msot people realize

[3D]Torbull: and it takes time to adjust for it

EGLN.net|Shaun: to me, the source community was always up and down

[Xfire]Frederic: one thing i d like to point out is that the community as a whole is clearly choosing Source over 1.6, as evidenced by the game stats Xfire tracks

[ESL]Pesticide: seeying is believing in our bussiness

[3D]Torbull: so many source people were fighting for attention and a stage to show their skills

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Frederic that's not really true.

[3D]Torbull: so SOME of the community has a reputation for being whiney

[3D]Torbull: but i think that changes, shaun

sebastianweishaar: I can see that happen for 2008 Midway, but not for 2007 yet

[GotFrag.com]Midway: As of 5pm EST - 154,800 playing CS 1.6 - 74,000 playing CS:Source according to the steam powered website

[3D]Torbull: takes time for people to adapt to the envonrment

[3D]Torbull: frederic brought up a good point - cs is perhaps around because of esports, but there is a whole other gaming market....

[3D]Torbull: and some of that worls ISNT EVEN ON A PC!

[3D]Torbull: (hard to believe)

[3D]Torbull: Question: What abbout CS on consoles... the first CS on Xbox wasn't too hot, but do you think a game like CS can live and breathe on an Xbox or do you need the mouse and keyboard?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Sebastian the money will be on a level not scene before, players from Europe who don't play it will simply be left behind.

[Xfire]Frederic: As the average gamers buy new computers, it is going to be very hard for them not to switch to Source, which exploits their computer's capaibilities much better

[ESL]Pesticide: halo2 proved what a shooter on consoles can do

EGLN.net|Shaun: was just goign to say that

[3D]Torbull: but it is so much simpler

[3D]Torbull: than a CS

EGLN.net|Shaun: look at Halo 2

[Xfire]Frederic: I fell for it too, for a few days at least i was Source convert after I bought my new computer

EGLN.net|Shaun: or Halo for that matter

EGLN.net|Shaun: but of course, that is a whole different market and community

[3D]Torbull: do you need to make a game for a specific platform or can you port the game play over as Valve, Microsoft (halo), Ubisoft (splinter cell) and others have tried?

[3D]Torbull: yah but it pertains to 1.6 / Source

[3D]Torbull: the console market is so big (US especially and growing globally over time)

[3D]Torbull: Soooo

[MYM] MajorBrodo: yes because the consoles are today a multimedia platform

[Xfire]Frederic: Midway, on Xfire at least, we have seen a continued decrease of total daily number of hours played and total number of users for CS 1.6

[3D]Torbull: midway is still on the 1.6 or source for 2007 esports

[3D]Torbull: i think we struck a nerve with some of our panelists

[3D]Torbull: which is great =)

[GotFrag.com]Midway: It's the hot issue.

[MYM] MajorBrodo: and you can find them in nearly every household

[3D]Torbull: soooo do people switch?

[ESL]Pesticide: consoles however are still on another level, they are catching up but they still need a few years

[3D]Torbull: can players do 1.6 and source?

[3D]Torbull: do they need to pick one and go?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: When players realize they can make 6 figures playing Source this year, do you really believe they'll be playing CS 1.6?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: I'm not saying they'll want to but DirecTV will throw down a ton of money.

[GotFrag.com]Midway: That's why the 3D's and coL's are moving over to Source.

[GotFrag.com]Midway: I'm not saying I'm a fan of this but that's the future.

[GameTrailers]DK: I think games like RS6 Vegas, Halo, and Halo 2 show that the FPS genre on consoles has a healthy future. I don't think you can write one or the other off, since so much of a "good" gaming experience is based on preference. I mostly play consoles to be honest, but I understand the huge draw, support, and retention for PC gaming.

EGLN.net|Shaun: money talks

[ESL]Pesticide: cs 1.6 also still has 6 figures prizemoney

[Xfire]Frederic: Over 80% of the gaming industry's revenues come from consoles. That s where the masses are and that s probably where e-sports will develop

[GotFrag.com]Midway: 6 figures or a team yes Pesticide but not per player.

[3D]Torbull: we all hope 6 figures becomes 7, which becomes 8, and we all do the next debate from a yacht in the caribean!

[GotFrag.com]Midway: CGS offers per player.

[3D]Torbull: is a good 1.6 player going to be good at source to make the jump, or as our panel pointed out earlier is the game play too different.

[GotFrag.com]Midway: I meant to say, per team players make 6 figures.

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Last year the top CS 1.6 team, Complexity won $140k

[GotFrag.com]Midway: as a team

[GotFrag.com]Midway: A top player, inidividually could make that much from CGS if they were to win EVERYTHING.

[GotFrag.com]Midway: That's the degree of difference here guys.

sebastianweishaar: I agree on that for the US market Trevor, but still I dont see it happen in europe yet in 2007 ,it will affect only a few players this year.

[Xfire]Frederic: I also think that one thing that e-sports might suffer at many levels is the fact the teams are quite 'volatile': they change a lot and few have long term aspirations (or life expectancy). That in turn makes it hard for sponsors to make investment decisions and for the human interest (rivalries, celebrities, etc.) to develop

[3D]Torbull: so WILL it happen in say 2008, sebastian?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: DirecTV has partnerships worldwide, there's no way it'll be limited to the US market.

[MYM] MajorBrodo: time will tell

[GotFrag.com]Midway: SkyTV in UK is a very big partner of DirecTV.

[ESL]Pesticide: all will depend on how deep cgs pockets are torbull

[Xfire]Frederic: Would Cs be even allowed on German TV considering it could be classified as a 'wargame'?

EGLN.net|Shaun: and the return they receive

[GameTrailers]DK: I know a ton of people are working to MAKE it happen...if it's a commercial success however remains to be seen

[ESL]Pesticide: great question Frederic , it is allowed on pay television due to their age verification

[Xfire]Frederic: The great thing about e-sports is the fact there is A LOT of passion and passionate people!

[GotFrag.com]Midway: CGS is backed by basically two of the largest media groups in the USA

[GotFrag.com]Midway: CGS has MASSIVE pockets

sebastianweishaar: lets say it "can" happen 2008, but it won't depend on CGS only

[3D]Torbull: Question: Is TV even the end game for spectating video games, or is the future of either 1.6 or source as a spectator sport online or through xbox live?

EGLN.net|Shaun: but are they going to get the return from the money spent?

sebastianweishaar: we are aware of that Trevor, but its not all about the money

[Xfire]Frederic: Pesticide, this is a pretty limiting factor right there. I also know that a lot of major sponsors are reluctant to associate themselves with what they see as 'violent' games such as CS

[3D]Torbull: maybe one day we log onto xfire to tune into 3D vs. SK

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Streaming video over the internet is the future of eSports.

[Xfire]Frederic: Good point Craig! online FTW! Digital FTW! :-)

[3D]Torbull: is it online or is it interactive?

EGLN.net|Shaun: streaming video as far as i'm concerned is a major part of esports

EGLN.net|Shaun: not everyone has direcTV

[ESL]Pesticide: Frederic you bring up a nice point , wich game is more CONSIDERED violent in the us, cs 1.6 or source ?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Well the internet is interactive, so that's one in the same imo.

[ESL]Pesticide: ( capslock) oepsy :) )

[GameTrailers]DK: I think it will start online and progress to televised events that culminate events that originated online. Msoft will most likely be the critical component in this over the next few years (Xbox Live, IPTV, Vista Video...)

[3D]Torbull: what is interesting is how they make interactive box top sets for TVs, the developement of IPTV, and the convergence of the two mediums

[3D]Torbull: DK, how does a multimedia, content provider like GameTrailers approach this sort of stuff?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Is this a debate about 1.6 vs Source or a debate about the future of eSports?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: lol

[3D]Torbull: little of both

[3D]Torbull: if we say source is better on tv

[3D]Torbull: what if TV isnt the end g ame for e-sports

[3D]Torbull: just discussing :)

EGLN.net|Shaun: I think its best both on TV and online

[GotFrag.com]Midway: I think you are confusing the points.

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Source is better for broadcasting, not TV.

[GameTrailers]DK: Honestly, as I mentioned, there is still a lot to figure out. I KNOW there is a future for eSports as a specator sport, but exactly HOW we get there is TBD

[3D]Torbull: good clarification

[Xfire]Frederic: we might have gotten sidetracked abit :-)

[ESL]Pesticide: tv will show what we tell them toshow , if we convince them cs 1.6 is the esports game thats what they will show

[GotFrag.com]Midway: It doesn't matter if the medium is Internet or TV box, Source looks better to the newb fans.

[MYM] MajorBrodo: but will the newb fan follow CS games anyways ?

[3D]Torbull: Question: so that brings us back to a rpevious point from midway - what is more important to make 1.6 or source win - the FAN or the COMPETITOR

[GotFrag.com]Midway: If they don't what are we all doing here? Because this will never get bigger then billards.

[ESL]Pesticide: television is a powerfull tool , but not the only tool , fans and competitors make or break the game

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Average fans must follow this if its to become a huge sport.

[3D]Torbull: and i will point out that lots of people DO enjoy source. Team 3D for example PREFERS Source. The change of game was VERY WELL received by Volcano, Lin, and Ksharp

[MYM] MajorBrodo: yes but will it be CS or an other game maybe ?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: The fan is more important then the Ksharp's, Rambo's or Heaton's

[3D]Torbull: the game isnt as evil as this APPARENTLY one sided panel thinks ;]

[3D]Torbull: so it is about telling the human interest / rivalry factor

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Players can be found, fans can't be.

[3D]Torbull: a dime a dozen!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: BTW, you can ask questions in the question room now

[GotFrag.com]Midway: You know that better then most Craig, roster has changed a lot recently.

EGLN.net|Shaun: all in due time

[3D]Torbull: Im not doubting it ;]

[Xfire]Frederic: CS in general is a very compelling games for any gamers (see its universal and conitnued success regardless of its incarnation) and Source especially is an extremely compelling game for all gamers (doh!) because of its graphics.

[3D]Torbull: i think it is a combination of a lot of different things

[3D]Torbull: and to begin the players captivate the audience and make the competition medium (whatever g ame) relevant to viewers

[3D]Torbull: the individual, inter-team, and game play challenges

[ESL]Pesticide: i guess we can all agree that 1.6 paved the way for source , now source will have to walk the walk, if it can do that im still skeptical

[Xfire]Frederic: Very few games have as successfully survived adaptation or re-release as CS has, keeping pretty much the same basic gameplay elements.

[3D]Torbull: i think thats a pretty good summary, pesticide, but it concedes that source is the future

[3D]Torbull: how do you think valve's approach has changed from CS betas --> 1.6 and the evolution of source

[Xfire]Frederic: I do think Source is the future indeed.

[3D]Torbull: OK, time for some user questions

[3D]Torbull: from the open forums!

[3D]Torbull: Question: i√ | ÐarkFury: Question: Why do Valve try new mods like the Dynamic War Pricing? Do they even care what they put out?

[ESL]Pesticide: time will tell :)

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Seriously it’s beyond a joke. Right now the price of armor is $5,119 while the nightvision goggles are one dollar, yes ONE dollar. I think the system just shows how out of touch Valve can be sometimes. It also undermines the game because it shows the massive disparity between the weapons in the game.

[3D]Torbull: loool

[3D]Torbull: its like when everyone loaded xfire and solitare to take over WOW! too much democracy isnt good

[Xfire]Frederic: I think Valve wanted to introduce a formed of shared online continuity with CS, a la MMO

[ESL]Pesticide: hihi :) i see no point in discussing a feature that i can deactivate for competitve gameplay :)

EGLN.net|Shaun: I think Valve's only purpose with the war pricing, was to try and put a new spin to a game that still isn't fixed

[GameTrailers]DK: "I'd buy THAT for a dollar!"

[3D]Torbull: lol

[3D]Torbull: lets make a deal, DK!

[Xfire]Frederic: LOL

[3D]Torbull: Question: Team.god †Silent Predator: weapons- as the years go by, weapons change, yet CS has remained relatively the same in this matter. Would a weapons update in your opinions make the gameplay better/up to date?

[3D]Torbull: new guns

[3D]Torbull: good or bad?

[Xfire]Frederic: I am for a knife only update.

[3D]Torbull: THOUGHTS

EGLN.net|Shaun: up to date? yes

[ESL]Pesticide: i remember when the new guns where introduced all hell broke loose , but in the end people accepted it and it offered some nice new tactics

EGLN.net|Shaun: make game play better? they still have to fix the game first lol

[Xfire]Frederic: Knife and fists, that would remind me of my childhood neighbourhood

[3D]Torbull: think pre-famas / gali

[3D]Torbull: and save rounds were diff

[3D]Torbull: it was deagle or AK or mp5

[3D]Torbull: now you got some variety

[GotFrag.com]Midway: I think CS is built around the guns it has and that's CS. To change the guns drastically is to basically alter the game. It'd be better just to start with a whole new game.

[3D]Torbull: but why do you think they struggle to make so many of the current guns relevant

[3D]Torbull: i mean the duelies

[3D]Torbull: or the five seven

[3D]Torbull: even tmp (althouhg thats an instant classic)

[ESL]Pesticide: guns and prizes are indeed a crucial part of the game and would need serious consideration before alteration

[3D]Torbull: Question: ≤àR/eR≥ Rich: Do you think It would make the nightvision goggles meaningful if you guys added night maps?

[3D]Torbull: now thats interesting

[3D]Torbull: think paris hilton night vision on CS maps!

[3D]Torbull: i wouldnt mind hittnig "N" and seeing that!

[Xfire]Frederic: I usually do not like drastic changes to the core CS gameplay features. For instance, I really dislike most of the mods (WC3, DM, etc.)

[ESL]Pesticide: then i would know where you where hiding and spray my load all over you :o

[3D]Torbull: Question: GoldenEye`: Do you guys think cs 1.6 would still be around with the development of new technology increasing in such a tremendous rate; as you can see the people are buying into graphics and not how the game is played

[ESL]Pesticide: ( did i just really say that)

[GotFrag.com]Midway: So whats the point then? I can buy nightvision goggles and see it all anyway. So why make night maps?

[Xfire]Frederic: I think CS is universal and immortal :-)

[3D]Torbull: god bless the internet

[ESL]Pesticide: night vision in cs in my opinion is a moot point

[Xfire]Frederic: Hehe pesticide. You are showing too much of your European sensibility here.

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Starcraft was first made did people really believe it would be this huge in Korea a decade later? No one can predicted the future of CS, so its not worth trying.

[3D]Torbull: Question: BloodyDragon: Are you in favor of having CS:S getting updated with more explosives, such as actual C4 or Chargepack?

[Xfire]Frederic: regardless of the technological imporvements, I think there is a strong chance CS will be around for a long time, as it will keep being ported forward

[ESL]Pesticide: the game has been around since 1999

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Source has a lot of issues, I think explosives stuff is low on the list of things that Valve needs to look at.

[3D]Torbull: lol

[ESL]Pesticide: im pretty sure it will hit the decade

[Xfire]Frederic: I would not like to have RPG's or explosives in CS

[3D]Torbull: i think the guns make it the best

[MYM] MajorBrodo: it would destroy the whole game

[3D]Torbull: the lack of distance fights

[Xfire]Frederic: beyond the nades of course :-)

EGLN.net|Shaun: I agree, although again it would put a new spin to the game to have C4 etc, there are too many bugs that need to be worked out of the game first before making changes like that

[3D]Torbull: NEXT!

[Xfire]Frederic: but then that s why you have mod's! :-)

[3D]Torbull: Question: Is there a Michael Jordan of CS? Who is it? Is it a team?

[3D]Torbull: will teams or players become the biggest stars of CS esports

[GotFrag.com]Midway: I’m not sure any CS players can jump as high as Michael Jordan.

[3D]Torbull: will people ask for the air ksharps or the team 3D keyboard?

[Xfire]Frederic: The question is: are there any bald CS players?

EGLN.net|Shaun: good question

[ESL]Pesticide: im still a fan of the heaton eco round :) so that would be my jordan

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Seriously though Craig, it already is happening so the question is rather moot.

[GotFrag.com]Midway: SK has gaming headphones - Fatal1ty has motherboards and sound cards

[3D]Torbull: how so

EGLN.net|Shaun: Fata1ity?

[3D]Torbull: so you think both

[3D]Torbull: ?

EGLN.net|Shaun: its been done

[3D]Torbull: ScreWe: i dont care about a micheal jordan of cs... is there a Micheal Jackson? cuz that really scares me

[3D]Torbull: looool

[3D]Torbull: MVP of the open chat goes to scewe

[MYM] MajorBrodo: there are a lot of good player at the same time but none of them was/will be on top for a longer time

[3D]Torbull: how about a philosphical question

[3D]Torbull: 2 or 3 bombsites per map

[ESL]Pesticide: indeed most of them peak and then move on

[GotFrag.com]Midway: hey Torbull

[3D]Torbull: is 3 too much for 5v5?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: There is a Michael Jackson

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Spike

[3D]Torbull: ouch

[3D]Torbull: lol

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: ok one more questions

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: question...

[Xfire]Frederic: I admire teams that have a long standing history and have managed to survive over the years. I know how difficult it is at so many levels. Team 3D, SK, Mouz, Goodgame, EG, mTw, Ocrana, aAa, 4Kings and more... are quite admirable in my opinion!

[ESL]Pesticide: nothing but respect for long lasting teams indeed

[3D]Torbull: To kind of bring it full circle

[ESL]Pesticide: they helped pave the way

[3D]Torbull: interesting question came in from the other room

[3D]Torbull: that i would like to put a spin on

[3D]Torbull: Question: jaww^: I hear alot of people complaining about the hitboxes in css or registry sucks on some servers. Do you think if that was fix CSS would be a much better game then it is already?

[3D]Torbull: So we all here said the hit boxes were a major issue in source.

[3D]Torbull: If they were to be "fixed", how much closer would that bring source to a "competition ready" state

[3D]Torbull: Would you 1.6 lovers become source lovers?

[3D]Torbull: or is there significantly more to it

[ESL]Pesticide: it would contribute heavily yes, if its possible that is

[Xfire]Frederic: Organizations like GotFrag, ESL, mYm, ESEA, EGLN and more are also pretty amazing for their continued support of the community.

[ESL]Pesticide: you the man Frederic :)

[GotFrag.com]Midway: The hitboxes are a by product of other changes, as a whole maps and sizes of everything have been decreased. This makes the game appear bigger and intern the hitboxes are bigger.

[Xfire]Frederic: :-)

[GotFrag.com]Midway: I don't think you can "fix hitboxes"

[ESL]Pesticide: lets rephrase that , would the game require more "skill

[GotFrag.com]Midway: It's not a simple issue and anyone who makes it one doesn't understand how the game is made.

[GameTrailers]DK: I think, as many have expressed, that would indeed impact the perception of Source...I still don't know if people would make the jump however as there are other fundamental differences between them

[3D]Torbull: Question: AIR_CAV: Do you see the need for an E-sports players union?

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: ok encore...we will do a question or 2 more

[3D]Torbull: interesting - regardless of the future game

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Well its a natural point. If a hit box is bigger compared to the map and other factors, then its easier for all players no matter their skill to hit that box.

[3D]Torbull: do the players need to unite

[3D]Torbull: or is it pre-mature

[GameTrailers]DK: Not now, but eventually...

[ESL]Pesticide: unions are a fundament of our society and will eventually be needed

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Still I think that more skill the more often you hit the higher damage hitboxes.

[GameTrailers]DK: and then crazy gamer sports agents...that would ROCK!

EGLN.net|Shaun: I think the players all need to carry the same attitude towards the game and the whole of e-sports

[ESL]Pesticide: but currently they are not feasable

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Player unions are a by product of one league games.

[Xfire]Frederic: As a French man, every time i hear union, i think 'strikes' and I start feeling sick. :P

[GotFrag.com]Midway: NFL, NBA, FIFA

[3D]Torbull: i agree, frederic!

[3D]Torbull: i hear french and i get sick!

[GotFrag.com]Midway: These create player unions to counteract the power of the league. eSports doesn't have that type of league yet.

[3D]Torbull: JUST KIDDING

[3D]Torbull: Question: ηﺃģђ†§ - name maker: What do you guys think of the variety of mods available in CSS? For example Zombie Mod and RPG MOD.

[3D]Torbull: whats your guys' favorite CS mod?

[3D]Torbull: Soccer Jam?

[3D]Torbull: WC3 Mod?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: I played CSS gungame mod, its fun

[ESL]Pesticide: mods are excellent for public servers , they keep the game fun

EGLN.net|Shaun: Zombie mod for css is a blast

[3D]Torbull: mods are fun

[ESL]Pesticide: I love playing a lifeleeching owner who cant die and teleport :0

[3D]Torbull: lol

[Xfire]Frederic: I don t want to sound too negative but I don t really like any of the CS mods out there. I like the pure CS experience.:-)

[3D]Torbull: PoopieDeLoopie: Should Valve Try to take in more mods and make commercial games out of it (such as: counter strike, day of defeat, gmod)

[GotFrag.com]Midway: wow there was a lot I could do with that Pesticide, lol

[3D]Torbull: interesting question again from a reader

[Xfire]Frederic: I am even against key binds that auto buy your gear. :-) All should be manual!

[GotFrag.com]Midway: What more games are there to grab honestly? I mean they need to be popular enough for Valve to make money on it.

[3D]Torbull: is the mod community best served by independant developers

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Doesn't seem like there's many games to do that with.

[3D]Torbull: well gary's mod?

[3D]Torbull: EA bought Dice

[GotFrag.com]Midway: On top of that they seemed more focused on TFC2.

[3D]Torbull: so it does happen

[3D]Torbull: TFC2.......

[3D]Torbull: that is what im waiting for

[ESL]Pesticide: same here

[3D]Torbull: your going to see it overtake the #1 spot on xfire within days

[3D]Torbull: interesting angle with TFC2

[3D]Torbull: more cartoonish

[GotFrag.com]Midway: How many games have I heard that about, I'll wait until it happens.

[3D]Torbull: should be interesting to see the gam eplay

[Xfire]Frederic: Allowing game mods was really a genius move from Valve! CS was one of them at first. :-) I love Natural Selection, Dystopia and others!

[3D]Torbull: riccochet!

[3D]Torbull: lool

[ESL]Pesticide: mods are what make communities

[ESL]Pesticide: nothing but kudos to mods

[3D]Torbull: WWould CS be CS if it was modded to have flags versus bomb plants?

[3D]Torbull: to jump back to a previous comment by some of our german amigos

[Xfire]Frederic: I am extremely admirative of mod developers! They bring a lot of creativity and passion to the gaming industry.

[Xfire]Frederic: And they give me more excuses to spend time in front of a computer. :-)

[3D]Torbull: to alleviate some of the violence issues

[3D]Torbull: if you changed the objective in name, but not game play

[3D]Torbull: would CS still be CS

[3D]Torbull: and would you still watch / play it?

[GotFrag.com]Midway: I think bomb planting gave CS an edge when it was first created, now its not as important to the growth of the game as an eSport platform.

[ESL]Pesticide: i would have prefered something else then a bomb , especially in the current age of war on terrorism :(

[3D]Torbull: could be an interesting path

[Xfire]Frederic: what about planting trees?

[3D]Torbull: do you think it would be seen as selling out

[3D]Torbull: to fans

[3D]Torbull: hardcore users

[3D]Torbull: lol, frederic

[3D]Torbull: make levees, not war!

EGLN.net|Shaun: lolol

[Xfire]Frederic: Make CS carbon signature neutral...

[GotFrag.com]Midway: Yes, any changes even if its not a sell out - is seen as a sell out.

[3D]Torbull: Well, ladies. I think that's about all we have time for. I really enjoyed this and i think we had some great discussions!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: THanks Craig!!

[3D]Torbull: As I think midway said, only time will tell if its 1.6, Source, or mind sweeper

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Thanks fans!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Thanks guests

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Open Debate was awesome again

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Clan Invites will go out during next week

[3D]Torbull: SEE YOU ALL NEXT TIME!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: i have 5 prizes

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: 3 hats

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: 2 games...

[3D]Torbull: and a date with midway

[3D]Torbull: !

[3D]Torbull: BUT YOU'RE BUYING SO BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: the real prize is just showing up with all the cool people

[3D]Torbull: i once saw him eat 15 corn dogs in one sitting

[Xfire]Frederic: Thanks for EGLN, ESL, GameTrailers, GotFrag, MeetYourMakers, Team 3D for their participation! You guys were awesome! Thanks for dedicating your time! Special thanks to our European friends! It is quite late over there. :-)

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: ok...

[3D]Torbull: hah

[3D]Torbull: ciao!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: and the winners of the hats are...

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: wMute

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Ðragon

[ESL]Pesticide: have a good night everyone , now go win those prizes !!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Silent.Killer

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: PM me

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: game winners

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: 1. TheOne

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: 2. DS Major Silver SSF-2 CO

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: PM me if you won

[GameTrailers]DK: Congrats winners! And congrats to everyone on a fun debate! Best!!!