[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox (debateox): Hello Everyone and Welcome to the Xfire Debate Club!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox (debateox): It's the First one we've had in a long while

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox (debateox): I hope you're as excited as I am!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox (debateox): We have a huge and fantastic panel for you here today to debate the top of Free 2 Play vs. Pay 2 Play MMOs! I'll let them Introduce themselves, and then Tony Colafrancesco, our fabulous moderator from MMOLIFE will take it away!

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I guess I'l go. I'm Cody Bye, Executive Editor from Ten Ton Hammer. Glad to be here. :)

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Hello everyone, I'm Arend Stührmann, Associate Producer for EVE Online.

BloodyMess (colafran): I am Tony Colafrancesco the BD Director MMO Life, and I am honored to be the moderator.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Adam Mersky, Director of Communications at Turbine...hey all!

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Hi everyone, and thanks for having me today.  My name is Fred White, Director of Marketing & Communications at YNK Interactive.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Hey everyone!  I'm Josh Sell, Producer for Aeria Games.  I manage the game Shaiya.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Hello everyone, I'm Randy Price from ArenaNet.  I lead our Business Team over here.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Heya, I'm Christian Wehrlin from Games-Masters.com, Customer Support Manager - dedicated to MMO's... Glad to be here!

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Hey everyone, I'm Krystalle Voecks from Massively / WoW Insider. It's great to be here!

BloodyMess (colafran): Now that the introductions are done, lets dive right in.

 

BloodyMess (colafran): What are your 3 favorite Free 2 Play games, What are your 3 favorite Pay 2 Play games?

 

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): That's a tough question right off the bat.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Wow good question!

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Isn't it?

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): hehe

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): No punches pulled.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Seriously.. :P

RandyPrice (kuma222): F2P - Guild Wars; P2P - Guild Wars - FTW!

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Great "first date" question, Tony.

BloodyMess (colafran): Rappelz, Megaten, Project Powder for F2P

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Free-to-play: Atlantica Online, Runes of Magic, and Guild Wars (if it counts as F2P)

RandyPrice (kuma222): Couldn't help myself...

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Obviously, I'm fond of WoW, having a spot on WoW Insider. ;) - I love the free-form sandbox w/ mines of EVE, and LotRO for awesome story and graphics.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Rohan: Blood Feud is also awesome.

BloodyMess (colafran): Planetside, Eve Online, UO (oldie but goodie), P2P

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Favorite P2P:  WoW, Ultima Online, and Guild Wars

F2P:  Shaiya, 4Story, Megaten

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Free2play-titles? I probably have to name Guild Wars, as i played that for a long time, and also Cabal and Perfect World... Pay2Play - urm, definitely LotRO and WoW, not sure about the third one...

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): P2P:  LOTRO, COH, Guild Wars

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Tough one indeed. I've only enjoyed two other P2P's other than EVE: Lotro and Warhammer. F2P...well I liked Guild Wars.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Free to play, I've been digging on FusionFall, which I think is a heck of a lot of fun, GuildWars remains a staple, and the third... wow.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Tough question.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Lots of good ones.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Ohhh - I enjoy all of Aeria's titles.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): F2P:  Believe it or not I'm playing a lot of these free peristent games on my iPhone like iMafia

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): It seems we're already a bit divided about whether Guild Wars is P2P or F2P, ;)

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): There are so many F2P games! :)

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): P2P faves would be WoW, Eve Online, and it'd be hard to pick a 3rd right now :)

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Probably Mabinogi

BloodyMess (colafran): It is hard to get away from Eve Online,, every so  often I just need to return

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I stick pretty close to TTH's Top Ten F2P list, those are all really quality games.

BloodyMess (colafran): Let's move on....

 

BloodyMess (colafran): It seems as though fantasy MMO’s are a dime a dozen, can any of you tell the difference between them?

 

RandyPrice (kuma222): F2P - Ikarium is excellent, playing some Mabinogi

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Ummm.....absolutely.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): After playing so many, definitely.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): F2P faves (other than our own Rohan: Blood Feud) would be Guild Wars (though I technically don't qualify it as a F2P) and some games on my iPhone.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Definitely

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Definitely. There's always a certain flavor to the communities

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): It's like asking if there's a difference between Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Art, mechanics, design, community, environment... they all play a role in differentiating one game from another.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think that every MMO, fantasy or not, has at least one key feature that differentiates it from the rest.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): I agree with Krystalle.  Communities play such an important role in the MMORPG experience.

RandyPrice (kuma222): PvP focus, PvE focus, play mechanics, art style

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): *nod* There's always differences in art, in storytelling, so many different things - but the communities keep me coming back.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Agreed.  Any MMO worth its salt will need to differentiate itself somehow.... otherwise it won't survive long.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Hrm. I disagree a bit. In many ways its not the game itself, that actually makes what it is, and makes what you remember, but the people you played and enjoyed it with... sure, featurewise there are differences, but you usually cant remember those...

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): It goes farther than genre...these games are designed to immerse you so there needs to be a really well rounded experience that provides fun experiences for all different types of players.  A lot of fantasy MMOs do one or two things really well and then suffer in other areas.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I hear ya there Adam.

BloodyMess (colafran): for me, being the strapping American Lad that I am, the one difference I like to see in Fantasy MMO's is when they actually let you choose your characters face in more detail, where men actually look like males.  So many fantasy MMO's, the sexes look almost the same in my opinion.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): However I think the game mechanics are the strongest contributor to a game's community forming.

BloodyMess (colafran): lets move on....

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Yeah it is Arend. EVE's community is very different from LOTRO's or DDO's

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): If you do not encourage people to form groups then you end up with a marathon of solo players...potentially.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): There's truth in that. If the mechanics are crap, the community will remain more limited.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Customization is very important to our players.  While our games do offer many opportunities for customization (including facial appearances), they often ask for even more.

 

BloodyMess (colafran): Are Pay 2 Pay Developers pressured to make their games bigger compared to Free 2 Play Games?

 

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): and different mechanics attract different players.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): I don't think so.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Not anymore.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): They have been in the past.  I do think that trend will change.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I think there used to be a certain expectation for them to do so.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): No, I think if anything we are more about the quality of our content. The fine details that people pick out.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): However, with all the great offerings in F2P, we're seeing that change.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I think both have to have a very gripping new player experience.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): F2P developers needs to have something to sell which means developing new content and features that they either sell to players or attract more eyeballs for advertisers

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): I think that as the quality and production values increase with free to play games, and the free to play model gains traction, the lines will be blurred.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): There are so many MMOs on the market anymore, that players are willing to bounce from one to another.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Size is nothing if the content can be breezed through in a couple of hours and then you sit there twiddling your thumbs.

RandyPrice (kuma222): I think so. The expectation is constant improvement and new content. F2P has that as well, but at a completely different level.

BloodyMess (colafran): In my opinion, I think they do to a certain degree, they need that higher quality to convince the players it is worth it to pay the subscription

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): exactly, fred, I like that 'blurring lines'-wording

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): But does quality = size all the time?

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): No.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Look at Dark and Light

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Definitely not

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): No, not at all.

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on...

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Size doesn't matter

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): See Vanguard... was big :P

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Dark and Light was sold on its "Huge world"

 

BloodyMess (colafran): Does Free 2 Play automatically mean "Lower Quality"?

 

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Unfortunately today it does

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): No. It usually just means an older game, since it's imported.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Size matters, but it is far down the list in important features.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think to a lot of people it does...at first.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): I believe free to play does mean that a lot of the below quality games get out there, and people are exposed to those games.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): It at least is changing currently.

BloodyMess (colafran): I agree with Adam, right now it does, but I think in the next few years the scales will shift and I think the quaility will continue to improve with F2P

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): The average person will just assume that because it's free it'll have the same quality as a cereal box toy. But that is not always true.

RandyPrice (kuma222): This is all going to depend on the financial results these developers and publishers see over time. Everything is still trying to figure out what is financially working.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): but the ones of higher quality will definitely stick out - some will even compete with the pay to play

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I definitely think from talking to people that there's an expectation that a F2P won't necessarily provide as robust an experience, but I do see that mindset changing - if slowly.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): You will start seeing AAA MMOs offering F2P models in the near future

RandyPrice (kuma222): I agree with Adam

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Free Realms is a good example. GW was hybrid.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Yep, Adam, i agree, first examples are about to see the light pretty soon...

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think we'll see players choosing one P2P game and sticking with that but supplementing their gaming with a handful of F2P's.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Also agree with Adam.

BloodyMess (colafran): Adam is on the  ball I think

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I'd agree with Arend; I see a lot of that now.

BloodyMess (colafran): but we should watch it, he may get a big head :)

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): o       Some may argue (and I think this may be where you are going with that question) that “free to play” means that the production value of the game is inherently inferior to a “pay to play” game.  That just isn’t true.  If you take a look at the production value and quality of a game like Rohan: Blood Feud, you’ll see what I mean.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Because no matter how big or broad a game, it usually cannot offer everything...yet.

BloodyMess (colafran): lets move on...

 

BloodyMess (colafran): Currently all of the top F2P games are made in Asia. Do you think that this hinders their perceived quality.?

 

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Not at all. They're making games for an incredibly demanding audience.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): No. Not unless the people are biggots.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): I think it depends on how you define 'quality'

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I think it's somewhat a question of differences culturally, less so a question of quality

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): The bigger issue is that very few games seem to translate well when moving from West to East or vice versa

BloodyMess (colafran): let me correct one thing on that question, it should be most of them, not quite all, there are a few domestic F2P titles that are starting to do well

RandyPrice (kuma222): It has to date, but there's no reason it has to be that way - right now, the localization of most titles is mediocre at best

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): @Adam: is that a design issue or a localization issue?

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): And Arend is right...the audience in Asia is very different that in EU or NA

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): American players don't care about blood types - this may seem absolutely alien to them. To a player in Japan, this is something that is common. It has a cultural reference.

BloodyMess (colafran): Agreed with Ahrend.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): I think generally, the perception is that the Asian games are going to appeal to a specific kind of player (ala Lineage).

BloodyMess (colafran): I have seen far too many publishers take a successul game in China and try to force it on N America and Europe, and many times it does not work

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Randy hit on the key word here:  localization.  Games made in Asia are often quite strong, but they may need some fine-tuning to adjust for cultural tastes of the West.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): It's both.  I spent some time in China and S. Korea last year and the way players actually play the game and interact with eachother is fundamentally different than Western players.  Game design needs to take that into account as it goes much farther than just translating the game into another language.

BloodyMess (colafran): the Engrish factor as it is called

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Agreed entirely. If the localization isn't properly implemented, it just won't fly.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): That depends on the view of the players... currently the target audience of many games were asian players. And thus many 'western' players cannot see the 'quality' - but as the developers change, looking to the western markets as well, that view of our players will change as well...

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Adam makes a good point. The cultural aspect of gaming itself is different in Asia.

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on...

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): So there needs to be more of a push for flexible systems that localizers can adjust while translating the text?

 

BloodyMess (colafran): What do Pay 2 Play games have that makes them worth the $15 a month?

 

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): It's interesting to see EVE corporations meeting in the same net cafe every day to play together in RL.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Cody: Exactly. Very hard to achieve, tho

RandyPrice (kuma222): All of us have had our problems getting the East to accept our games as well - the play style and expectations of the communities are just very different.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): P2P games are serial entertainment.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Well for one thing we can offer more rapid development of content and launch expansions more often.

BloodyMess (colafran): in general, I think the quality is a bit higher (for now), and players expect better customer support

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): There's also the question that older players (20-30s) are more used to subscription based games.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Arend, why do you think that P2P games can offer more rapid development of content and expansions?

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): It's something within our culture; it's what we're used to.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): What if the game has been launched in Asia for several years and there is a year of content waiting to be rolled out as soon as the title is licensed?  And it's free to play?

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): They need to provide an experience that evolves to keep players engage while also adjusting to the players themselves.  HBO needs to crank out new shows to justify it monthly fee...MMOs need to do the same thing

BloodyMess (colafran): Ahrend makes a very good point, in a P2P model, it is easier I think to forecast revenues for the publisher, and easier to continue rapid development and content

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): So they have established communities, which retains players.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Continuing content that expands over time - money there to fund the dev team - support from the publisher that this is the norm and expectation for the title

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I think there's statistics out there that point at how much an average F2P gamer spends over time.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): I think I saw that Cody

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): I disagree with that. Financial model has nothing to do with the development itself.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): It is about being able to forecast your income reliably for one. And for another the fact that we have a community who each pay us every month creates the will and drive to deliver more and better gaming experiences to them.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Yeah - so forecasting money shouldn't be a problem

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on....

 

BloodyMess (colafran): We have seen Conan drop down to nothing, WAR struggle a bit to keep their subscriptions up & some titles like Auto Assault and Tabula Rasa completely close their doors. True EVE and LOTRO have found their niche audiences, but is there room for any more subscription titles?

 

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): But Arend, they can just as easily all cancel their subs?

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Cody: exactly

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I think Conan will find its legs.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): I think the future isn't P2P OR F2P...its going to be about player choice

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Agreed.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Yes, there is room. If the game and its model is really unique... trying to 'beat' WoW or Eve is just impossible, and even unnecessary.

RandyPrice (kuma222): I think the financial model has tons to do with the development. Let's be honest, we all have to take into account the potential return we can make on our development investments. Don't get me wrong, the core is to develop the greatest MMO, but...

BloodyMess (colafran): I think there are, but they need an advantage, like a strong IP to capitalize on to really make it

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): There should still be room for more P2P.  It's all about choice.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Sure Cody, they can. But to prevent that we need to continue to offer them engaging content. Usually that means working harder on more expansions. At least for us at CCP that is. :)

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): I disagree with Arend.  We, as a F2P game, can also forecast financially.  I don't think being a subscriber or a micropayment player makes a difference.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): The player base grows exponentially each year...but it also gets older which means it engages with the product differently (i.e. family, kids, work start to limit game time)

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I definitely think there's room for more subscription games. We have more people playing MMOs all the time.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I think we'll see fewer $50 mil - $100 mil titles.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): The future is going to be about building games that can support both types of models

BloodyMess (colafran): Good one Adam

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): It will take some forward-thinking into what will hook players if you want to do that. That said, I think both are viable.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Subscriptions for the hardcore gamer who spends a lot of time in game enjoying content.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Ah, it comes back around to the hybrid model

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): There are plenty of niches out there. For one we're seeing more titles being built around established entertainment brands like Stargate and Star Trek. And I think the first studio to bring out an MMO that appeals to the over 35's is going to have a success on their hands.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Krystalle: The problem is, they play either WoW, cause their friends play it, or F2P-titles, cause they are available easy (not that this is a problem for our company..)

BloodyMess (colafran): It is all about choice for the player, that is what will keep them paying

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): F2P for Weekend Warriors who want to get in, play for a chunk of time with their friends and then log off for a spell

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): The established IP thing was only a matter of time.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Perhaps, but as a friend of mine who has since moved on to EVE said, WoW was his "training wheels" game.

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on....

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Or, Adam, for players who see the value in only paying for what they deem necessary for the enjoyment of their game.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I'm definitely interesting in seeing how MMO's and social networking will start to mesh in the future.

 

BloodyMess (colafran): With WoW being the market leader in Pay 2 Play MMOs, with no intention of budging from the top, are companies changing their strategies when it comes to monetizing their games?

 

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Great point Fred

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I don't think so.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Yes, definitely.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): We're already seeing that.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Seeing as "because my friends play it" is a constantly encountered reason for why people play a particular game.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Even EA is stepping into the F2P market now.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): SOE's introduction of the Store into EQ/EQ2

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): @Josh which EA title?

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Definitely

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Battlefield Heroes

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Free Realms coming, potentially DCUO and Agency on its heels

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Ah. That's just a pseudo-MMO, right?

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Well, WoW created, or opened up a market, which itself was a Niche itself before that.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): right

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think we'll certainly see more games offering "premium" services for additional fees. The hybrid model that's been mentioned a couple of times already.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Agreed.

BloodyMess (colafran): I think people are starting to realize they cannot knock WoW out of place, so don't try, and don't try to copy their model, be flexible and find what model works for your game and your players

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Yeah - I don't think WoW is scaring people away. I think there's plenty of people that are willing to spend $15 on an extra sub.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Absolutely.  We hear our community compare our prices to every other MMO that they've played.  And the $15 pricepoint that WoW created is now the threshold that players judge all other MMOs by.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): That is all true about the $15 threshold

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): But we've had tremendous success with our Lifetime plan

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Turbine: Even I have one... :)

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): It's change the way people experience our game...less rushing through content

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on....

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): I'm sure there are many successful pricing plans, and the challenge will be for us all to find the one that works best for us.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Your lifetime sub was a GREAT marketing move.

 

BloodyMess (colafran): Are the people that don’t pay in F2P games worth having in the community?

 

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Those who don't adopt it, say - Turbine's Lifetime, or FusionFall's $5.95 for one $9.95 month for four accounts - shows that there's a change in models.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Fred, it's interesting that you say that because we've also heard similar points through the years about Guild Wars (that we've set the threshholld for what a player should expect out of the box)

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Agreed on the lifetime. That was brilliant.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Sorry for the caps but: ABSOLUTELY!

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): OK, Randy, I'll give you some credit for that one as well ;)

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): You cannot have a F2P community without non-paying players.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Free players bring life to your community.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Of course. Every player adds to the community whether they pay or not. A player on his free trial in EVE is just as integral to the universe as someone who has been around for years. The important thing is that they are there, interacting with people and adding their small part to the game.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Right.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): What are you going to do, beat 'em away with a broom?

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Yeah, every player helps add to the game experience.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Take a game like Cabal, that we are running - and did start as P2P, which didnt work out at all.... Now being F2P, its a great experience, as enough players are there for the nation wars, and all the other PvP-Elements... Elements that killed bigger P2P-titles already

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): For that matter, will anyone play if they log in and find a server dead?

BloodyMess (colafran): I think they are very important, because in my opinion it is community that keeps the people coming back, both paying and non-paying. I spent 6 years on the AIM team, and I know that "Friends don't let friends quit", there is still a MUD that my AIM buddies force me back into playing, and it is 10 years old

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): No, not likely.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): And the viral effect gained from non-paying players is significant as well

RandyPrice (kuma222): Absolutely, not, Krystalle

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): It think it add a layer of complexity to community management...but in the end, it's the community that is the key factor in a games success or failure

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): So it all depends on what types of tools you are providing them

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): It's an interesting relationship.  Free players resent the paying players for spending money to  be better than they are.  And the paying players often resent the free players as people with "too much time on their hands".  But in the end,  they need each other.  And we need all of them.

RandyPrice (kuma222): And I feel the pain every time I hear about this game or that doing server merges

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Ugh, yes.

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on....

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Server merges are sad.

 

BloodyMess (colafran): Most of the players that play F2P games never pay for anything, but the 10% that do pay more per month than people who play WoW, why do you think these players choose the F2P model?

 

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Without one of the 2 groups (paying or non-paying), the population would be smaller, and the community less interesting and engaging.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): F2P will bring a lot more players in...and they aren't going to want tradition tools like forums, etc.  They are going to want more robust platforms that provide a place for them in game and outside as well through the use of widgets on FB and the like

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Are you talking about the 10%

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): ?

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Because it gives them a choice

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): It's a question of the game companies providing content that players just haaaave to have, to a certain extent.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Honestly, I think it's because they get hooked on the content and the community, then their wallets open up

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Cause they aren't forced to do anything... If they dislike it, they are gone, thats it.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Right. No strings attached.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): To some others, it's a fun way to relax with friends and spend money they would elsewhere.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): If I want to log in on Saturday, load up on some killer gear and kick butt for a few hours then I should be able to

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Exactly, adam

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think they see the money they spend on the F2P as a more transitory expense, more like a movie ticket.

BloodyMess (colafran): Personally I choose the F2P model because I don't have the time to spend in MMO's that I once did, and I feel I am getting ripped off if I pay the monthly sub but don't have the time to play as much as I like.  In the F2P games, it is a pay-as-you-go model.  The same reason people love pay as you go cell phones.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Exactly, Arend.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): iTunes changed it for everyone

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): no one thinks twice about buying just one song now

BloodyMess (colafran): Adam hit that one on the head.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): I like that iTunes-example

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): A movie is $10, concessions, another $5, little nickel and dime transactions add up, but at the time, you think "It's a nickel."

RandyPrice (kuma222): And before you know it you've purchased 300 songs

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Adam and Tony echo what we hear from our paying players.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): And someone who buys just one song can go on to buy the rest of the album.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Right.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Exactly.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Bingo

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): It's finding out what players want to buy that's the trick.

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on.....

 

BloodyMess (colafran): What are your thoughts about the big publishers like EA entering into the F2P world with big titles like Battlefield Heroes? Are we seeing a big change in the industry think here?

 

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): What is that killer song that will make them buy everything else?

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think it is a natural progression.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Not sure if "oooh, look, money" is a big change. ;)

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Is Battlefield Heroes really an MMO? *grins*

RandyPrice (kuma222): Something by U2, Cody

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): I think it's great.  It adds legitimacy to a fairly new business model (free to play) that is now getting traction in the West.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): I think we're seeing the F2P market open up... whether it will revolutionize the future games remains to be seen.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): But to answer your question It's not a big change. I think it's just the natural change.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Publishers have seen the success to be had with F2P from the market in Asia. It is only natural they would try to repeat that with a western audience.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Fred: Couldnt have said it better

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): EA understands how to bring a ton of people into a game...MMOs to date make that a very difficult whether it's the price, the download, the install, etc.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Hedging bets, trying to anticpate where the market may go - that's what EA is doing

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Randy's got it dead on.

BloodyMess (colafran): Agree with Ahrend.  I previouly worked for PlaySpan, and I worked with several larger publishers who are moving toward F2P.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): And a large company like EA or SOE will definitely try to capture both the P2P and F2P customers.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): First rule of retail is to get them in the store...then they will buy something

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on....

 

BloodyMess (colafran): Right now F2P games skew a bit younger with the demographic. Why do you think this is? Do you think that as time goes on the users play F2P now will continue playing F2P as they get older, or will they migrate to Pay 2 Play games?

 

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Younger users have less money to spend.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): The only 'big' issue we F2P-publishers have, are the misunderstandings and wrong old prejudices, that players still raise, that could change with 'big' companies 'helping out'

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I think that's a cultural thing, as well as an income thing.

RandyPrice (kuma222): No credit card needed

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): *nods* When you don't need a credit card, different worlds open up.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Their first MMOs were F2P, most likely, because Mom and Dad don't want to put their CC info in on line.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Simply cause they do not have to open any kind of wallet or mommy's pocket to enter the game at all...

RandyPrice (kuma222): As they get older, their options will open up. At the end of the day, they are still going to look for the best of the best gaming experiences

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Heh, Randy beat me to it. ;)

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think players will play the games which appeal to their tastes...and those change as they mature.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): What about game time cards that don't require credit cards?

BloodyMess (colafran): Here is the thing, I think the younger audience will stay with F2P, why is that?  They can usually get access to cash, but not to credit cards, and how to they use that cash?  They are plenty of payment providers like PayByCash and ClickNBuy who accept cash mailed in, and kids can also go buy prepaid cards at the store with cash

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): While their wallets will open up...they will still be conditioned to the F2P experience

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Agree with Arend.  Young players are looking for free entertainment.  And like Randy said, their options will increase as they grow older.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): The problem with GTC's is distribution...

RandyPrice (kuma222): Krystalle's my new best friend :)

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Josh: Young people still do stuff they 'just heard off' - so they won't just jump to the next shop/gas station to get a Wallie-Card

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I think people just like "free"

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Payment options are a main challenge with any F2P company. 

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Getting them into stores, especially for a niche game, is likely to be a challenge.

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on...

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Well, I like free, but I still carry multiple subscription games. ;)

 

BloodyMess (colafran): Which model is better suited to last the test of time in gaming trends?

 

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Both.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): We will see :)

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Now there's the million dollar question.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Arend: Ask yourself that same question by the end of this year, please :P

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): I don't think that model exists yet

RandyPrice (kuma222): Tough one

BloodyMess (colafran): Cody is right, players want choice in the end.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I'd agree with Adam.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): What we're seeing is the market expanding just now.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): People trying new things, companies trying new things.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Like a bunch of us have already said, the best experiences will win, to some degree regardless of the business model

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Exactly...we're still in our infancy as an industry

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I think the first company to figure out how to give players the most options with the fewest hurdles wins.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I don't think the perfect model exists yet.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): I believe that it won't be just "one" model that will prevail.

BloodyMess (colafran): The next question goes right along with it....

BloodyMess (colafran): so

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Or ... what Fred said. ;D

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on.....

 

BloodyMess (colafran): Is there any business model for games out there that you think could work better than F2P or Subscription?

 

RandyPrice (kuma222): But that doesn't mean the business model is not very important as well (I don't want to talk myself out of a job) :-)

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Krystalle: And that's brilliant! Finally its not the "We copy WoW"-stuff anymore, but the experiments, that happen before the 'real' market is there...

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I'd like to see games that got closed re-open again with F2P models.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think it might also depend on how payment mechanisms evolve...for instance if paying with your mobile phone becomes as widespread in the western world as it is in Japan, we're going to want to take advantage of that.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, Asheron's Call 2

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Earth and Beyond.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): @Cody...we've seen games switch and I don't think you can just do that

BloodyMess (colafran): Very good point Ahrend, payment systems may very well determine the revenue model.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): If I would know it, we at Games-Masters.com would have introduced it. We do have F2P, and we do have Hybrid-games. The next thing I could think of would be using mobile phones not just as a 'payment'-solution, but also as being 'part of the game'

RandyPrice (kuma222): The hybrids are coming... we just don't know the specifics or whether they will lead to more revenue ultimately

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I dunno. Which games are you thinking of Adam?

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): A game has to be designed to fit a new model...think of the model as just another system in the game

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I think seeing some of the in-roads in alternate payment is a good step. Paypal subscriptions is a good move, Turbine's Lifetime, the F2P item malls that hit you with that ITunes like-crack experience.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Reshaping a game that was designed for P2P into an F2P is really difficult.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): You can't just bolt on a new pricing model without fundamentally reengineering the game

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): A lot of people ask us whether we're going to turn EVE into a F2P in China and the answer is "It would break the game..."

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I can't imagine EVE as a F2P.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): EVE is different though.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Anarchy Online modified for the F2P model somewhat

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Where's the point in having a complex player-driven economy if everyone can just buy the goods off the website.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): EVE is based around time.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Arend: Thanks for that... weird as it sounds, but Eve is kinda the holy grail of the industry currently :P

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Although I'd be willing to shell out some cash to get my corp un-war-decced.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): It's not the biggest game around, but it's still around, :)

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): (kidding)

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I dunno. I bet SOE is attempting it somewhat with EQ.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): (holy grail: Everyone heard of it, but only a few - too few - people have touched it yet...)

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): And EQ2

BloodyMess (colafran): Lets move on....and I think this is the last one before we get some questions from the viewers...

 

BloodyMess (colafran): How vital do you see Social Networking for gamers, and how do you think it affects the average lifespan of a paying player for a title?

 

RandyPrice (kuma222): How about subscribing for a particular set of microtransactions content that you get to choose?  Pay a set amount each month that let's you choose among a whole array of content

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Extremely important.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Huge.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Huge

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Huger than huge.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Your social network can keep you in the game...or drive you out.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Look at how many blasted games there are on Facebook.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Exactly.  It's an extension of your community.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): We've been very focused on this and recently launched the beta of MyLOTRO.com

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Enormous!

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Now, imagine those people in an item mall, or paying a small sub, or buying a lifetime.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): It allows the players to create their own place in the community in a much more meaningful way

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Eventually this will be accessible from within game and other other social networks

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Tony, that seems to come from your heart :) - and yes, it is very important

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): And to add on to Adam's comment, a new place in a *new* community.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): And it lets players learn how to play from their peers...which is more valuable than any number of tutorial hours, imho.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Good social networks are the way of things. But bad ones, oh my, bad ones are painful.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): see xfire, one of the bigger gaming-social-networks i could think of currently...

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): See what your friends play and jump in... brilliant

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Social networks are also a great way to keep your finger on the pulse of the community.  What they are saying and thinking that they might not want to tell you straight up.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): And it has to tie into the game.  Pull player stats, etc.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Yup. The Armory for WoW was a huge step.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Agreed. There's a lot of room to grow in this area. I really can't wait to see how it evolves.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): MyLotro is the same way.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Adam makes a good point. No use having a social network without some connection to the game.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): You've gotta give the players enough flexibility to be creative with what you give them though.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): We have a presence on Facebook, MySpace, Orkut, Plurk, Twitter, Avatars United, etc. etc.

BloodyMess (colafran): Ok folks, now we are going to take viewer questions...here is the first one:

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): There's a whole social community based around WoW Mods.

 

BloodyMess (colafran): {EL}-CJCOS-Pheonix (swbf2lord): Q- Do you think that the economy will affect the mmo industry?

 

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): It already has.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Look at EA.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Yes, absolutely.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): I think the economy affects everyone

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Indeed.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Yes, quite a bit.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Definitely. People who could afford to play three P2P's might have to cut down to only one.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Projects are being dropped left and right.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): And it may be the key driver of the introduction of new models across the industry

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Depends on the structure of your company, and the strength it has. It hasn't affected Games-Masters yet

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): And it of course affects the amount of investment money to be had.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Yes, absolutely.  And I think we'll see a bit of a "shakeout" this year.

BloodyMess (colafran): I think though that many people look to gaming as an escape, it may be that they go to gaming more?

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I know a lot of people who say "$15 a month is cheaper than dinner out."

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): And I think F2P will grow in such a state of the economy.

BloodyMess (colafran): Next question from the viewers...

 

BloodyMess (colafran): Lprsti99 (lprsti99): Question: Does anyone remember the first MMO's? To be specific, MUDs? Any of the debaters still play them?

 

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Discworld!

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I was too young, unfortunately.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Games, especially F2P, are often considered "recession-proof".  I don't think anything is totally recession-proof, but I do think that entertainment is often low on the list of things to cut out of a person's discretionary income.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): I don't play MUDs anymore...but I do play text based adventures on my phone.  Zork FTW!

BloodyMess (colafran): I play Dark Mists, a great, great MUD, but I do not pay for it.  I still love  some of the old MMO's though.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I miss the Neuromancer themed MUD I used to play. :(

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): I've coded a roguelike, but I was too young to play when MUDS were big.

BloodyMess (colafran): It may date me, but I LOVED the first Zork, and Pirates Cove on the Vic20....

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Asheron's Call was my first real MMO, but I did play some MUD's back when I was a kid.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): :)

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Thanks for the plug Fred!

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Zork (and most Infocom games) were my love, as well Tony.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Hah!

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Haha -- you are welcome.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I was in the AC Beta Phase 0

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I would love to see a Zork MMO...

BloodyMess (colafran): Next question from viewers....

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): MUDs? Yes, thats how all started for me... greetings to Volito and Hexall from Exile! :P

 

BloodyMess (colafran): [xs] Gannons (admin) (gannons): Q: do you think the amount of "gold spammers" is effected by F2P or P2P?

 

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Zork was so awesome.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): I just hear someone just announced a Zork MMO

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): No, I think they're bloody well annoying everywhere.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Yup. It's easier to make a F2P account. :)

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): What Cody said.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Someone get me a beta key to the Zork MMO when it gets there. :)

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Not really... trial accounts are just as easy to get a hold of as a F2P account

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Although if the game has a trial account, it starts all over again.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Agreed.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Josh beat me to it. :)

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): urm, we might see changes on that 'easy' in the near future for botters... not going into details, tho :P

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): @Arend - I'll do my best with the Zork key. ;)

RandyPrice (kuma222): The better the economy, the more gold farmers

BloodyMess (colafran): I think in the F2P space, as long as a game is built properly with microtransactions, it makes it much more difficult for gold farmers to make a living

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): I agree Tony

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Agreed. Why risk it when you can buy it legit?

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): CCP has an excellent system there.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Yeah, if they cannot undercut the prices the developer charges and make a profit, why bother?

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): the ISK for Time Cards deal.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): That's absolutely brilliant.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): They're still everywhere.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): We added an Exchange Market into our game, that allows players to earn in-game cash by selling their in-game items.  That has helped reduce the impact of gold farming quite a bit.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Players want to be able to sell their stuff just like the devs.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): What Fred said.

BloodyMess (colafran): Next question from the viewers

 

BloodyMess (colafran): ~MAJOR.Patterson~ (majorpatterson): Question: As most MMO's are pc based are we going to see anything on consoles in the near future?

 

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): definitely

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Yes.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Yes.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): absolutely

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): SOE's alerady developing for consoles.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Sure will.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Yes

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): So is Turbine

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): *nod* And Funcom, etc.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): DCUO, Free Realms, The Agency, Turbine's game, NCsoft's upcoming Blade and Soul

BloodyMess (colafran): well, an easy answer to that one all round

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): For a good reasons, many devs licence established 3D-engines for that matter

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Age of Conan

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Maybe Star Wars

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think the challenge with consoles was the lack of keyboard input to facilitate communication. That's changed now of course.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Hell, I still like Phantasy Star Universe. :D

RandyPrice (kuma222): Honestly, I can't wait to try a nextgen mmo on console.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Yes, but.... MMOs (especially MMORPGS) typically are not well-received on consoles.  That's why there haven't been too many successful MMOs on consoles.  It's not so much the pricing model, it's the demographic that they attract.

BloodyMess (colafran): I so want Age of Conan to recover someday, I am a big Robert E Howard fan

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Star Trek Online, Champions Online

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): @Bloody - Me too.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): With more and more bandwidth ticking in, having voice-communication aside the MMO the 'keyboard'-aspect could get minimal

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): :P

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): They said the same thing about FPS

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): A huge factor will be interoperability between platforms, imo.

BloodyMess (colafran): Next question from the viewers....

 

BloodyMess (colafran): [TTHS] Salvenius (sh4dowj): Question: Do you think certain countries like Australia are in the right to bring in the law that states "selling MMO's is a crime" due to the recent concerns of the genre being "unhealthy" for people?

 

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): It's not a matter of IF but WHEN

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): It all goes back to community.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): FFXI already did it.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Poorly

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Australia...

RandyPrice (kuma222): But they make a lot of money

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): True, but they did it. :)

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): That's just a whole other set of circumstances.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Wouldn't happen, before that, the MMO-tax will come...

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): It depends on the type of government. :)

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): In China, they can obviously do whatever they want. But in the US it would be deemed....I dunno.

BloodyMess (colafran): personally I don't think so, MMO's are just like anything else, people need to watch themselves and not let an addiction take place, you see the same thing with alot of things.  Have they banned chocolate there?

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): A rights violation.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): They need to figure out if MMOs can be unrated first, I'd think.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think personal responsibility comes into this in a big way. People need to be mature about how and what they play.

RandyPrice (kuma222): I cherish my god-given right to play MMOs!

BloodyMess (colafran): I think the rest of the world needs to ban vegemite!

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): There will always be a government group that feels that they must protect us all from the evils of video games.  When they can protect us from everything else out there first, then I'll  listen to what they have to say.  Until then, I think it's about good parenting, and "checking yourself".

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): since they haven't really figured out if they can sell them unrated or not yet, depending on which government body you talk to.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Agreed 100% with Fred.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): You can pry the vegemite out of my cold, dead hands.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): If you can't govern yourself, you need more than any government body can do for you - you need to sort it out for yourself.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): And yes, Fred put it quite succinctly.

BloodyMess (colafran): Next question from the viewers....

 

BloodyMess (colafran): Moneo (deathmoneo): Question: Does P2P games mean more money for the creators of the game?

 

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Well, probably we should get more MMO-players out to vote in political electioons?

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): "Grind the Vote!"

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): That's hard to say....we don't have any F2P devs on this panel do we.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Not the game makers anyway.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): That's awesome.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): I don't think so

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): It's hard to say. No F2P developer has let me see their financial records yet.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Depends on the game, really.  And typically those numbers are confidential, so I think that will be a debateable question for a long time to come.

RandyPrice (kuma222): For the best of the best, P2P is a solid model.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Well, either way, the devs itself get licence-fees and/or parts of the revenues. So it both depends on the sucess of the game, and the costs the devs had...

RandyPrice (kuma222): I wish more F2P devs and pubs were releasing their numbers.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): I know Nexon is reporting excellent sales, but so is Blizzard. We have no firm numbers immediately handy.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Nexon's excellent sales are much lower than Blizzards, and Nexon is considered one of the best F2P

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): See, this is where the problem comes in.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): And who is setting the standards for "excellent"? I think F2P and P2P are still measured with different yardsticks when it comes to revenue.

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): And remember, revenue and profit are 2 different things.

RandyPrice (kuma222): Good point Arend. It all depends on the investment made

BloodyMess (colafran): Last questioin folks

 

BloodyMess (colafran): cool1990 (hovo1990): hi,i'd like to ask,is it possible to make 50 million budget mmo with a f2p model?

 

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): easily

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Sure. But will you make that $50 million back? :)

RandyPrice (kuma222): I bet Free Realms is doing this right now

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): You could spend anything you want on making a F2P. The question is if you'll see the return on your investment.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Already being done currently, actually...

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Absolutely

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Sure.  And is being done now.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Yeah, there are some trying it.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): That's kind of the million dollar question. Will it sell?

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Back to my earlier point...you will see a AAA MMO offer a F2P option in the near future

BloodyMess (colafran): every budget is determined by the returns expected, I can't think of any F2P right now that is completely expecting a return that high, but then again that is a heck of a task for any MMO right now, P2P or F2P

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): The Mummy-MMO... *hint*

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): The Asian market has had some big budget F2P titles done for a while now.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Are you hinting at something Adam? :)

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): ;-P

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Hmmm, I was wondering the same thing. ;D

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Yes, but they have also had an established F2P market for a while.

RandyPrice (kuma222): How about the old republic talk of F2P

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): :P

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): *laughs*

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Crazy reporters....

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): lol

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I had to do it.

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Historically players have been forced to sacrifice full-features/quality games for F2P

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Well, you are being rather open about it, Adam. ;)

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): I think that will definitely change.

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Right Arend.  I think we're just seeing that Asian F2P market expand into the US as well.

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Yep, i agree on that one

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I agree. We're seeing old Asian games hitting our shores

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): It just makes sense that someone will bring a premium offering into the F2P universe

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Soon we'll see their newest games coming over  ehre.

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Agreed.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): I think NCsoft is going to make a big push in that direction. Someone else will too.

BloodyMess (colafran): Everyone, it is time to end this debate, thanks to all who participated.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): And I think we'll actually see P2P make some inroads into Asia as well in the future.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Probably Aeria, Game-Masters, or YNK. :D

[Turbine] Adam Mersky (mersk): Thanks for having me!

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Thanks for having me, it's been a blast. :)

BloodyMess (colafran): and thanks also to the viewers, wonderful questions from you all!

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): It already has Arend with WoW. :D

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): .. and devs will also try to aim at global markets, rather than local markets, from the beginning - 3D-engine, art, ...

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Thanks for inviting me, it's been fun!

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Thanks for Having me too!

RandyPrice (kuma222): Thanks everyone!

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Thanks, everybody, it's been a pleasure to participate.

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): Ok Cody...WIDER inroads into Asia.

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Thanks for reading/listening.

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox (debateox): Alright Guys, It's time for the Debate to end! :(  Thank you to all of our guests and special Thank You to Tony Colafrancesco for being a great Moderator!

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): Thanks alot, it was an honor

[Aeria] Josh (roguefeebo): Thanks everyone for coming to see us chat it up!

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): *laughs*

[GM]LucoWB (lucowb): *waves*

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): And thanks to the readers for the great questions!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox (debateox): Thanks Everyone for coming to the 13th Debate Club, We're glad you came, and we're excited to be back!

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): Thanks also for coming by to hang out with us, Xfire folks!

[CCP] Arend (ccpwhisper): G'night all...

[TTH] Cody Bye (codybye): Night everyone!

[YNK] Fred White (wi1dcard2): Cheers!

BloodyMess (colafran): Farewell!

[Massively] Krystalle (krystallevoecks): o7 See you in game!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox (debateox): Users who made it into the Exclusive TTHS Clan will be notified by mail

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox (debateox): And those in the clan also had a chance to go up in rank

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox (debateox): Keep watch on the TTHS..there may be another debate in the near future....

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox (debateox): Bye Everyone!