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Xfire Debate Club 12th Meeting: Independent Games
January 25th, 2008 (Open Debate Transcript)
[Xfire] SDaria: THE DEBATE HAS BEGUN. PLEASE DEBATE ONLY IN THIS ROOM. ALL OTHER CHATTER SHOULD BE IN THE UNOFFICIAL CHATTER ROOM.
[Xfire] SDaria: YOU CAN ALL TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU LOVE XAROTH IN THE OTHER ROOM. =oP
lostsoul27: XD
[dec]Chaoman: well said :P
lostsoul27: hey your cool too
[dec]Chaoman: I was talking to SDaria.
[dec]Chaoman: sorry ^_^;
<CNN>DGMurdockIII: If it wornt for indi games there never be video games at all IMO
Sister Grimm™: tru tru
spetnatz0warrior: tru tru
Jokәr: Nah, they'd just be more expensive.
spetnatz0warrior: ye
spetnatz0warrior: buh
spetnatz0warrior: more queallitu
Jokәr: Ture
Jokәr: True even
oxyhemoglobin: Well, all the big companies got their start as independent. Some of the first famous game developments were made by lowly kids who modded their games (Here's looking at you, Wolfenstein + Smurfs)
Colonel Tempest: well everything has to start somewhere..
spetnatz0warrior: ye
spetnatz0warrior: gud point
Sister Grimm™: mmhmm
[dec]Chaoman: that is true.
oxyhemoglobin: Wow, they have one of the developers for Gish over there. Cool.
=CK=Daemon -Matt: Some companies dont start, mostly some buy out other companies and skip the whole process of starting.
spetnatz0warrior: te
Colonel Tempest: but the company they buy out still had to start :D
spetnatz0warrior: i was thinkin of srtin a game compin
spetnatz0warrior: buh
spetnatz0warrior: i cant make games
spetnatz0warrior: sad
spetnatz0warrior: lol
oxyhemoglobin: True. Kind of seems a bit like those bands in the 90s that were put together entirely by a label. Seems to sort of squash creativity in a way, doesn't it?
=CK=Daemon -Matt: Yes, but when they take over the ideas of the original company is lost and its like the company did not exist to begin with
spetnatz0warrior: tht is a good point
.. World ..: How does ind. game producer find the money
[dec]Chaoman: ads
.. World ..: it must cost a lot to start a game...
{AFP}Nhb93: loans?
=CK=Daemon -Matt: it does
Recon.: i wouldnt want to start a game company alot work has got to be done, i am a programming student , id rather make the games for a company
<CNN>DGMurdockIII: look at crytek they made far cry as a indi studio
Jokәr: Not neccecarrily
=CK=Daemon -Matt: Some Get jobs.
Tolkienfanatic: Ads and subscription models, mainly.
=CK=Daemon -Matt: and use there own money
=CK=Daemon -Matt: while others are able to use other means.
=CK=Daemon -Matt: ads and microtransactions.
{AFP}Nhb93: plus they aren't tied by time cnstraints
spetnatz0warrior: ye
.. World ..: Could they make money with premiums?
speedrockracer: farcry was a demo for new nividea tech
spetnatz0warrior: lol
.. World ..: I don,t remember indi games with premiums
<CNN>DGMurdockIII: and they did not think they would geet as popupaly as they did
Theranos: Well it seems that today you make a mockup of a game you'd like to make and then it never gets done, then someone stumbles upon it and says hey I like that it should be done
{AFP}Nhb93: so they can just work for a while till they finish
[Rampant Games] Jay: If you are just starting out, I'd recommend getting a job at a mainstream studio. You can learn a lot.
Jokәr: I'm in charge of an Indie companie trying to get out first game off the ground (hopefully by winter '08) and we arn't putting a dime into it. It's tough.
spetnatz0warrior: it takes a long time to make a game
Tolkienfanatic: Lots of big name games started indie... look at Pokemon.
spetnatz0warrior: even if u have tons of money
spetnatz0warrior: POKEMON
[Rampant Games] Jay: Then when you've learned the ropes, you can graduate to indie.
.. World ..: Joker, you,ve got to invest money
spetnatz0warrior: now that was a cllasic game
Sister Grimm™: *shivers*
Colonel Tempest: well with an indi game you play it because of what it is , not because of who made it
=CK=Daemon -Matt: please dont compare pokemon
[Xfire] SDaria: *****FIRST QUESTION*****
[14:10] John Bardinelli: First things first: what the heck is an "indie game" anyway? A guy in his mom's basement hammering out code? A studio unattached to a publisher? Both? Neither?
Recon.: yea .. but it takes even longer when theres a problem and u have 6 people debigging it
<CNN>DGMurdockIII: Mount and Blade is even made a indi team
LOKGARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR: Its a guy in his mom's basement!
Jokәr: No, not at least in the early stages you don't
<CNN>DGMurdockIII: they just now goot a publisher
Sister Grimm™: its a grassroots organization
spetnatz0warrior: 1st one
Theranos: I consider Indie to be a game with a low pop dev team and act as their self publisher
.. World ..: I agree
oxyhemoglobin: Just a game made buy a guy or his team. Mostly unpaid until the game is done. No grants. No company. I cite Alien Hominid and others, such as flOW - made as a thesis
<CNN>DGMurdockIII: it both
Jokәr: I can agree with that
{AFP}Nhb93: I would say that Indie is any game company, or person, not tied to a big name corporation. They make games because they like to make games, and don't care *as much* about the money.
Tolkienfanatic: Indie is simply independent in every sense possible. They have as few ties as possible, and usually as few employees as possible as well. Reference BitBlot, makers of Aquaria.
[dec]Chaoman: 1 t othree developers, right?
Zombie: An indie game is a game developed for the fans, not just teh money
speedrockracer: i think its a indie gameis a game with total freedom in what you make
spetnatz0warrior: ye i agree 100 present
=CK=Daemon -Matt: indie is the ideas of the world. Not of money. indie is what comes from peoples heads, while money is forced labor...
<CNN>DGMurdockIII: a studio that not atticat to a publiser
Riobux: What's the question?
Theranos: in a sense Valve would have fallen under my description before they got scooped by EA
spetnatz0warrior: ya i agree
Sister Grimm™: a company not owned by a major corparation like sony or nintendo...
spetnatz0warrior: buh this process takes time
Zombie: as with mainstream games, they could make a crap game and be happy as long as it sold well
Colonel Tempest: but proffeisonal game coders/artists probably still enjoy their job.. who wouldn't like to make games here?
spetnatz0warrior: and indie makes sure that in that amout of time
Recon.: but could indie games ever get enough money o advertise, and make high quality games say like activision and EA
oxyhemoglobin: Not necessarily. It's not like the guys at BioWare don't love their games when they make them. Bioshock just happened to get them huge amounts of attention and money. They still love games for games.
spetnatz0warrior: its 100 percent
spetnatz0warrior: good
Ketchup: I think an indie game is a game developed by people for themselves, not for other people
{AFP}Nhb93: I don't agree with that
spetnatz0warrior: i do
=CK=Daemon -Matt: me 2
=CK=Daemon -Matt: i dont
[dec]Chaoman: I agree with ketchup
Zombie: Not necessarily, Ketchup
oxyhemoglobin: You think an indie game isn't distributed?
Sister Grimm™: me too
Sister Grimm™: sure it is
oxyhemoglobin: How would we know that they exist if we didn't get to play them?
Theranos: But isn't it possible for a Studio to still be Indie yet not care about the game and only want the money?
=CK=Daemon -Matt: Why should indie be limited to the word of small?
Sister Grimm™: but not for profit... for fun
=CK=Daemon -Matt: when they can be SO big?
Riobux: An indie game is when a game is made out of love of creating a game and not because they'll recieve money.
Zombie: One thing that would drive me to develop an indie game is that other gamers would appreciate my work as much as I did
{AFP}Nhb93: Why would you make a game for only yourself to play? I understand wanting to make that game that you've always wanted to play, but then you would know every part of it and it would loose it's fun.
spetnatz0warrior: WIT SISTER GRIMM said
Jokәr: Most of the time, Indie developers are those who are, not neccecarilly unknown, but usually not known to the vast majority of the population, and therefore has no way to get themselves out there. Almost by defenition, once you get your company to be known by more of a general population, they stop being Independant.
[Xfire] Supercop007: When I hear the term "indie", I think of a small development team with little or no financial backing from outside investors or overarching company.
spetnatz0warrior: u titakky agree
oxyhemoglobin: Theranos, those people aren't the kind of indie developers who make games people love. Games are art and you need to love the art when you make it. Money simply can't be your only goal, or you end up with a crappy game.
Colonel Tempest: when i hear indie i think of music :D
<CNN>DGMurdockIII: i agree with supercop
Riobux: True Supercop007, but that's partly because people become greedy.
spetnatz0warrior: when i hear Indie, i think of the Indie's no offence
speedrockracer: lol me too
Theranos: When I first heard the term Indie or Indy as some call it I thought it was some new race genre
{AFP}Nhb93: Supercop brough up a good definition
spetnatz0warrior: so wut are we debaltin on
[dec]Chaoman: I believe goblin has a point. If you do not enjoy making games and are only in it for the money, they can turn out badly.
oxyhemoglobin: The question was "what is an indie game"
Recon.: personally i dont think indie game "companies" will beat out higher developers for a while, with the release of COD4, i dont really think a small indie company could make that in a decent amount of time
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: I think indie is games that are made for fun and not for money only.
Riobux: Thanks globin.
lostsoul27: lol
Jokәr: I agree, tony
spetnatz0warrior: Indie games are made for pleasure purposes not money making schemes
speedrockracer: i agree with tony
.. World ..: They do them for money, they've gotta live
lostsoul27: ya
spetnatz0warrior: ye
{AFP}Nhb93: Indie game makers lack the funds and the hardware, but not nesecarily the knowlegde or the drive, to make the big budget titles
lostsoul27: he has a point
Jokәr: No
spetnatz0warrior: buh then do go deep in to bussiness
Theranos: yea
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: maybe but they are not expecting to get as much money then big games
Recon.: thats true.. knowledge but no funds
Riobux: I always find indie games more interesting because they don't mind that their game will not reach out to a wide market and don't mind offending a few.
[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: Indie games can be sold for money, just not ridiculous amounts like $20-$60
Jokәr: I think that Indie developers could definately do it and not make a dime.
Colonel Tempest: indie games don't suffer from being forced into deadlines either?
Riobux: It's like Postal 1 and 2.
[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: more like $5-$10
oxyhemoglobin: Some indie game devs have the hardware etc, but they may pay for it with their own other jobs. Sometimes indie games are a hobby.
{AFP}Nhb93: I think an Indie game can be sold for at least #30 depending on it.
Riobux: They don't care they may offend people, they just go out and create the game they enjoy.
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: to make a game it probably costs them like 1/10000000000 of what they will earn with it
spetnatz0warrior: for indie develpopers
.. World ..: indie game as a hobby wouldn't grow fast and healthy imo
spetnatz0warrior: games are juz a hobby
[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: think about it this way, $30 indy game, or COD4?
Sister Grimm™: games are a lifestyle dude
.. World ..: cod4
spetnatz0warrior: indy game
<CNN>DGMurdockIII: i too think valve as a indi dev componey and think of them as big supportes of indi componeys
Theranos: Well Postal 1 and 2 were great but just not taken seriously... They, in my opinion were great, great games heck I still have them installed and it just shows what an indie company can do
speedrockracer: depends on the indie game ..
spetnatz0warrior: ye
spetnatz0warrior: true say
oxyhemoglobin: Wasn't there a game made recently where you play as a kid carrying out a school shooting? Raised a lot of hell, but it became popular and I think the guy has made games and had them become popular simply because of his background
[dec]Chaoman: I remeber that.
{AFP}Nhb93: That's the problem today. People only go for big name titles that they know they will like. I would take a chance on an Indie game if it looked really good. Not over CoD 4, because that is my franchise of choice.
oxyhemoglobin: Recently as in, a year or two. I'm fuzzy on the dates.
Sister Grimm™: likewise
spetnatz0warrior: ye same
Jokәr: There are alot of indie games that got popular, but mostly after they did, they stoped being inde.
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: alot of indie games are better than games made by like a million persons working on it for like 5years
Riobux: Valve was an indie company, but now personally, I think they are roaming around the grey area.
Theranos: Wasn't that the Tech school and then someone made a flash the week after
Theranos: I agree Rio
Riobux: With EA on their side and program which supports many games...
Recon.: indie games are nice for "free-time" but they could never be played on a large scale, you would need to patch it and make updates, fix bugs and have a team that keeps up with these updates
spetnatz0warrior: Every thin started off indie
Sister Grimm™: and what about popcap?
Jokәr: Valve stopped being indie with H/L one imho
[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: @Recon I agree
oxyhemoglobin: Well, would you classify some MMOs as indie? FlyFF? Maplestory?
Zombie: Recon, no games are flawless
{AFP}Nhb93: As do I (with Recon)
Theranos: Sure why not
Sister Grimm™: popcap started with insanquarium and now its HUGE
Riobux: It's hard to tell if they are indie because they enjoy making games or if they are a large company due to the amount of fans and the general size of the company.
=CK=Daemon -Matt: You cant recreate a label that is placed on you. There is reason your labeled and you should try to strive to improve that label untill the point that people WANT to earn that label for themselfs
oxyhemoglobin: They get updates and attention but they probably aren't involved in the stock market or anything.
Ketchup: When a company makes a game, they are doing it primarily for others; so that they can make money. When an indie developer makes a game, they are doing it for themselves, what makes the games so special is that they would still be made even if no one else but the developers played them - I think this helps create better games
Recon.: yes thats why they patch it
Jokәr: Both of those are definately indie, as well as some other games like that, Like Gunz.
spetnatz0warrior: ye
spetnatz0warrior: Gunz is a cool game
speedrockracer: indie games are more arty and creative than "other games"
.. World ..: Gunz is full of glitches
Theranos: I mean Drift City I thought was indie and I still love that game lol
Riobux: Gunz is personally ruined due to hackers.
spetnatz0warrior: anyone heard of ARMA, i heard it was Indie
{AFP}Nhb93: Well, if you have never heard of the company and they don't seel the boxed games, and rely on microtransactions, I would consider it Indie.
oxyhemoglobin: I never really liked Gunz. Sometimes the concept of a game can be overshadowed by the poor showmanship of the players, you know what I mean?
[dec]Chaoman: I have a question for you all. Do you think that indi MMO's are better than the big company ones? Or do you think that the other ones are better?
.. World ..: I agree
Jokәr: Well if you say gunz is ruined due to hackers, then you'd have to legitimately say games like Counter Strike are too
Riobux: Chaoman, there's no real difference personally.
{AFP}Nhb93: Good question Chaoman.
.. World ..: Indies mmo are repetitive imo
spetnatz0warrior: Indie is bacilly a allrounder company
Recon.: another problem, indie games are easily hacked in my opionion, they lack good game engines,
oxyhemoglobin: Well, I can tell you that I still pay for my WoW account, yet I quit FlyFF after I got a broom.
Zombie: I like the Indie MMOs better
[Xfire] Supercop007: In the case of Valve and Half-Life 1, I believe the point where they crossed from indie to mainstream was when they got Sierra to publish their game.
Sister Grimm™: i've recently discovered an awesome game "ragezone" and only a few hudred people know about it... and yet its still pwnsome
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I find that a lot of indie MMOs are less enjoyable, because many of them resort to grind to fill time
Riobux: It entirely depends on the company themself if they create a good MMO.
oxyhemoglobin: The ingenuity stream sort of runs dry after a period of time when they don't have funds, etc
Theranos: I dont know some are and some aren't but DC was just so cute to me I had to play it
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: Everyone can be an indie games developer, indie games can be made by people from anywhere that never went to school to learn about games developing.
spetnatz0warrior: u cat beat a complany that sepiclliiez in a direct concept
spetnatz0warrior: Indie is allrounder
=WFC=Dranzer[CoD/OG]: Indie MMOs have interesting concepts then what is seen in regular MMOs
[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: What I'm saying is that if someone packaged Maplestory or Runescape or even Gunz, would you actually pay $30 to play it? or Would you rather buy a more popular and more professionaly made game?
spetnatz0warrior: cant*
Jokәr: Once again, I agree with Tony :P
[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUESTION*****
[14:19] John Bardinelli: Indie is an attitude?
Zombie: Indie MMOs usually have a more welcoming community, imo
{AFP}Nhb93: I would buy that better game.
Sister Grimm™: it can be...
spetnatz0warrior: ye
speedrockracer: yes i think its more of an attitude
Riobux: Indie isn't an attitude. It's a way of life.
.. World ..: Big companies are the one who will invest the money and think power for original gaming concepts. Some indi might be original, but most of them are imo not so different then eachother.
spetnatz0warrior: i greee
[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: I agree with World
Theranos: Couldn't say it is but I guess it could be but it's more of a name tag
{AFP}Nhb93: It could be. Depending on how much into it the devs get.
oxyhemoglobin: Indie as an attitude? I guess it is. Not necessarily.
spetnatz0warrior: it can be
[SFV]Android - Chris: In my opinion, an indy game is made by a developer who's current profession in life isnt making games, and is not tied to a publisher
Recon.: i agree indie is definetly not an attitude
Sister Grimm™: there will always be "indie kids" who get pissed when you don't know of an obscure game...
Jokәr: Agreed. If it was an attitude, then companies like Ubisoft or Bungie could go around claiming independance.
.. World ..: true
Riobux: You don't get up and think "I think I'll be indie today and support the little guy!". It's a way of life, you either support them and do things for the love of it and not the money or you don't.
{AFP}Nhb93: How do you figure that?
Jokәr: And if they did that, they'd ruin the whole spirit of indie games.
spetnatz0warrior: If u want Indie to be a attitiude, then it is, if u dont, then its not...it depend on how u look at it
Recon.: i agrree wit joker
[Xfire] SDaria: *******SUB QUESTION*******
[14:21] John Bardinelli: So the possibilities for an indie developer really aren't limited?
spetnatz0warrior: ye
oxyhemoglobin: Well, yeah. You get the same thing in music and movies. But the problem with that is that some indie games flat suck. Anyone see the movie The Tattoist? Awful, awful film.
Recon.: yes
[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: of course not
{AFP}Nhb93: I think they are.
spetnatz0warrior: thre not limited
Zombie: Limited only by the imagination of the devs
Jokәr: Yes and no.
Theranos: They are limited by the checkbook
spetnatz0warrior: lol
spetnatz0warrior: good point
Theranos: Other than that no
=WFC=Dranzer[CoD/OG]: I agree with Theranos :p
Sister Grimm™: no they can do whatever they dangwell please
[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: Only limited by time, patience, and creativity
Zombie: and their coding abilities of course o.o
aNti_PXShaman: I think that Indie games really, are different and that they add more spice to the current gaming selection
{AFP}Nhb93: Indie devs can only make what they have time to make, and what they have the money, and hardware to make.
.. World ..: Indie developer are only limited by the lack of money
[dec]Chaoman: hm... indie is an attitude? THinking on a proffessional level , I would say it is more of a type of buisiness venture. you have a small group of people working on a game. Big companies have a lot more. So I would say it's not really an attitude, but the situation of the developers.
Sister Grimm™: and ONLY money
Jokәr: It is limited due to funding. An indie dev isn't going to go out and buy an million dollar engine, because they won't make a million dollars.
Recon.: Yes for sure, there is a limit to wat indie companies can do, wheather its knowledge, or money something is holding them back
Riobux: MMOAddict nailed it on the head. That is the only thing that holds indie companies down.
.. World ..: yeah, they are quite free to do anything
Zombie: World, some Indie games don't have a budget
.. World ..: Possible
[SFV]Android - Chris: the possibilities are obviously limited by money, as the high end software is expensive | EXCEPTION: when this indy dev makes this software himself, it is unlimited
Zombie: And some Indie devs aren't doing it for the money
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: As an answer to Xaroth's question, I think indie games are more named by either the devs or the press, or sometimes the players
Riobux: Luckily, they're not held down by "I've got to impress this person and that group of people".
Cougar: the no limits aspect comes from the "indie" attitude, the desire to inovate
spetnatz0warrior: Money is somethin that controls evrthing and evrone, the only limit to Indie
Recon.: time is also an issue
aNti_PXShaman: But if we are talking about indie companies, wouldn't that mean that most bigger companies probably started out as indie companies?
Sister Grimm™: and that's what makes indie games awesome...
oxyhemoglobin: The possibilities for an indie developer are only as limited as their imagination and supply of software. Sure, a kid who wants to make a mod for Oblivion may not have 3DSMax, but there's always Blender. You can find substitutes to fuel your game development.
Theranos: But with things like Xfire making Indie shine I think money is starting to not become a problem
[Xfire] Supercop007: I wouldn't consider indie to be an attitude, but a mindset balancing time vs. money.
[Xfire] SDaria: *****SUB QUESTION******
[14:22] [uTime] Xaroth: Well, now there's a question. (not to trample on John's feet here...) Who gets to decide whether something is "indie" or not?
Sister Grimm™: they push they envelope
{AFP}Nhb93: Indie games may not have a budget, but they need funds to make the games don't they?
Jokәr: True, rio which is a way they have a better advantage than mainstream companies.
[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: the players
Theranos: The Majority
Sister Grimm™: The general public I guess...
[SFV]Android - Chris: obviously its in the player's/consumer's mind
speedrockracer: the ppl
spetnatz0warrior: without funds, no progress
Jokәr: The developer, in some aspects
{AFP}Nhb93: I'm with MMOaddict
Sister Grimm™: SOCIETY
Recon.: well its indie depending on the popularity of the dev team and size of it
.. World ..: It,s easy to know if a game is individually made or not. No need of someone to decide.
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I don't think anybody "gets" to decide. I think people do or don't, and if the majority or the media thinks it is, then they go along with it
[SFV]Android - Chris: there is no strict definition to an indy game
W00tbeer1: I would say the players, they have the biggest impact on the games
spetnatz0warrior: ya
{AFP}Nhb93: Good point by Chris
oxyhemoglobin: It's not really a decision so much as fact. You look at a game and you can just sort of see, they made this with no money, the graphics are poorish, etc
<CNN>DGMurdockIII: Original SimCity Source Released
Zombie: So, the only motivation to make games is the funding you'll get, spetnatz?
Theranos: Or even more so it could be the player themself who probably doesn't care if other people think it is indie or not
spetnatz0warrior: i agree with WootBeer
speedrockracer: maybe its even like that in some countrys a gmae is considerd indie and in other its not ...
aNti_PXShaman: Indie games imo have a huge hult followings that really keep them alive
Sister Grimm™: yes but subconciously people decide whether or no a game is Indie
Riobux: No one decides what is indie. It's like an aura people feel. It's like quality in a game. No one decides "this game has quality", you can just feel it when people have put a lot of time and effort for the sheer enjoyment of you to enjoy it and just to create the game.
Jokәr: Actually... I disagree with Josiah
aNti_PXShaman: cult*
Theranos: herself too
[UA]WelehoRogan: Indie is a magic word to describe games that are the virgin journeys of a new company to make people expect innovation and tolerate a little crudeness in graphics aprt.
oxyhemoglobin: I agree, Riobux.
[SFV]Android - Chris: speedrockracer: that point is mute since indy is over the internet, mostly
{AFP}Nhb93: Are you saying that an Indeo game can't be of a high quality? (Rio)
[TTHS]82nd-CPL-MMOAddict: If someone plays an indie game, and then a company game, they will be able to tell the difference, especially if they are and experienced gamer
Jokәr: I think that even if you have creative control, you can still be mainstream.
Theranos: ok i go with riobux now better answer lol good job mate
Zombie: Agreed, Joker
Recon.: i think the Developer team should decide if they are indie or not
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: there can be progress without funds, just think about the first guy on the earth, he had no money and made himself a house so for indie : You just have a computer at your home and you can start creating your own game with what you have at the moment, you don't have to go around and try to get the best you can to create your game, you just use what you have so it's not mendatory to have money
Sister Grimm™: on the surface someone might not go out and say THATS INDIE but in their mind they're thinking along those lines...
Zombie: Mainstream still has room for creativity
[dec]Chaoman: I belive that some indie games can be high quality. come to think of it, isn't exteel indie?
spetnatz0warrior: i think defining Indie is a right to the developer team
spetnatz0warrior: not anyone else
.. World ..: You need money for the computer internet, Tony
Recon.: right
oxyhemoglobin: If an indie game is exceptionally high quality, I'm leaning towards guessing it's not very indie. If you looked at the staff and the people behind its development you could probably see that it was funded; either that or the devs are just exceptionally gifted at making something beautiful with nothing
[UA]WelehoRogan: I can't see any real difference between "indie" and "mainstream" and such games.. some indie games have better graphics and mainstream games do have innovation in them (at times)
Ketchup: I think developers can try to be indie, but it's the players who are the ones who really decide. You can't judge yourself as well as other people can
Jokәr: Agreed, and at the same time, Indie devs still have to conform to something if they want to make a penny.
Riobux: Not at all. They are limited by the money though and lack of "workers" so in general, there is less quality. But you don't need high quality to enjoy a game.
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: flOw is polished; look at any Introversion game
Zombie: Yuo don't need the net to develop a game, World
{AFP}Nhb93: Mainstream doesn't have room for creativity. People only do what it takes to make money in Mainstream. That's why Indie has the right idea.
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I don't think that polish has anything to do with indie or not
spetnatz0warrior: gud point ketup
.. World ..: yup, the concept is the thing that interests me the most in games
Theranos: Yea I disagree that Indie has a quality threshold
.. World ..: Indies are free to make the concept they like
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: You don't need internet to get programs, just go at a friends house and get the files you need then get them on your computer ^^
[SFV]Android - Chris: spetnatz, if a dev calls his game an indy and you see it in your local walmart, i would think thats not a indy game
Sister Grimm™: if high quality was needed text based games wouldn't exist
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I mean look at big name games that are absolute technical crap
spetnatz0warrior: Concept and Stoyline the to mahor things in a Game
.. World ..: yup
Jokәr: Not always
{AFP}Nhb93: I disagree Chris. Indie games can be boxed and shipped.
spetnatz0warrior: ye
oxyhemoglobin: The earliest indie games were distributed on big ol' floppy disks.
aNti_PXShaman: Indie games can really look watever they want to look like, I think that true gamers will judge on the gameplay and story AS LONG as the graphics aren't terrible for the time
Jokәr: Some people play something just for the gameplay or even just the graphics.
.. World ..: possible
[dec]Chaoman: Grimm raised an interestng point.
{AFP}Nhb93: Which is a sad shame Joker
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: Big games creators are asking themselves : what will make people buy my games.
Indie games creators are probably asking themselves : What will make my game original and fun ?
[SFV]Android - Chris: but that gets back to our definitons of indy, Nhb, and there truely isnt one
[UA]WelehoRogan: Jsut because game isn't indie doesn't mean it doesn't have innovation. For example, metal gear series.
Theranos: Do games have to be original now a days?
Jokәr: But at the same time, going back to a previous example, if an Indie game is good enough, people won't care about graphics. i.e.: posta
.. World ..: of course
spetnatz0warrior: yo even if graphces are bad, and the stoyline is great, i think if anyone plays, they will not move untill the game is over
oxyhemoglobin: Original? No. God no. Look at the public and look at what they'll buy, even though there are other games exactly like it.
Riobux: Of course Rogan, but people are held down less when they are indie by what everyone else likes. So they are more likely to hit something big.
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: @oxyhemoglobin: EA Sports titles
.. World ..: graphics do matter, spet. Runescape graphics scare me away.
[SFV]Android - Chris: though i agree with you in principle, spetnatz, in the day of Mass Effect, it is becoming less and less true
Ketchup: Some times it's clear what an indie developer is and what a big company is, the closer the two get in their practices the harder it is to define the difference
Riobux: Look at RedOctane. They were indie and hit on something big.
๑۩۞۩๑Sphiroth[XAROTH FTW]: Story line is muh better than graphics. Graphics are only a bonus.
spetnatz0warrior: ye
{AFP}Nhb93: Good writing and a god storyline makes a game worth keeping with. WoW has no storyline when I tried it out. CoD 4 had a storyline, and while short, it kept you playing the whole way through.
Zombie: Runescape gameplay scares me away
spetnatz0warrior: lol
spetnatz0warrior: ye sdame here
๑۩۞۩๑Sphiroth[XAROTH FTW]: runescape sucks.
[SFV]Android - Chris: lol runescape
Zombie: The graphics are low on my list of what makes a good game
speedrockracer: i agree
Jokәr: But warrior, if someone developed a new text-based game, can you honestly say you'd play it, even if the storyline was epic? Would you even know it existed?
Riobux: CoD4's ending was pretty sad...
spetnatz0warrior: i dont agree
Theranos: Yet Runescape is still a leading game out there
Sister Grimm™: if characters are deep and thought out, and the storyline flow and I can connect, the graphics could be stick figures for all I care...
[SFV]Android - Chris: because it has name recongition
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: leading because it's free and well known
DGMurdockIII: with the internet now if you have a good game and now how to get the word out anyone could make mony off there game
.. World ..: Guild Wars has the best storyline I ever saw, and is a pretty popular game. It's not indi, btw.
๑۩۞۩๑Sphiroth[XAROTH FTW]: all I can say about runeshit...
Run Escape!
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: I think the best ideas comes from indie, then there are these big companies that see that people like it so they just try to improve a few things and then they show it to people. Indie games are less knowns so a lot of people thinks that the games have been tought by the BIG creator but the idea was from the indie game developer.
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I avoid RS like the plague
spetnatz0warrior: COD 4 was actully a huge debate issue
spetnatz0warrior: because
[SFV]Android - Chris: I agree, the best ideas do originiate with indy
spetnatz0warrior: the gameplay did not aloow comand of the Russians
Zombie: I'd play a text-based game, even today
spetnatz0warrior: SMAE
oxyhemoglobin: I played through Zork last year. I just found out about it and I picked it up and loved it. The humor was the main catalyst for my interest.
spetnatz0warrior: SAMR**
[dec]Chaoman: one thing I notice about the graphics situation. A lot of big companies talk a lot about graphics.
{AFP}Nhb93: I need a little bit of graphics for me to play it, but I wouldn't be against a text based game if it was epic.
[UA]WelehoRogan: I play text based games, too. They often have a special feeling to them, and text-muds usually have better RP
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: not just talk, look at Crysis
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: yup alot of text based games are great, even if they are cheaper than others.
.. World ..: I doubt best ideas are from indy. Look at starcraft, guild wars, many more.
Theranos: Heck text based are great look at Uplink
oxyhemoglobin: Look at Crysis. Not even that good a game but everyone talks about its "amazing graphical quality"
Jokәr: Would you actually know it existed though? How much advertising power does a text-based-game have anymore?
Riobux: Yeah, it's a shame that all they do is pump as much good graphics in as possible.
[Xfire] Supercop007: Given the trend towards "casual" gaming, fun is quickly becoming the first priority. Just look at how popular the Wii and Flash games have become. Basically, if it's fun, people will play it regardless of how the product looks or how much it costs.
Sister Grimm™: here here!
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: yup, uplink is probably one of the best games i've ever played.
oxyhemoglobin: True, supercop
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: And i don't think it costed like a million to make it.
.. World ..: Flsh games will be fun for a really short period of time.
{AFP}Nhb93: Crysis - big name company, outdated gameplay. What point is playing a game if the only good thing it when you're not fighting, only looking at scenery?
oxyhemoglobin: Never played uplink, but it's on my list. See? Word of mouth.
.. World ..: They are too repetitive
Riobux: Rune Viking Warlord didn't have revolutionary graphics in it's time and I loved every minute of the game. The storyline was hardly good but the sheer gameplay.
spetnatz0warrior: we got to tell the comanine about the graphice, they are more grapgince ther interesting gameplay
Theranos: I disagree Casual are for some people but not all, I can play one for 10 minutes but then I just get bored
FrostFenix: depending on how decent the game is and how many people back up that fact that its good drags people into playing that game
spetnatz0warrior: HALO 2 had a stupid storyline
aNti_PXShaman: You could be a programer and go totally ga ga over the engine
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: Graphics doesn't makes games.
[UA]WelehoRogan: World- yes, but most of people play games that don't require hours to get anywhere
[SFV]Android - Chris: but people can play CS "casually", and i bet people play games that are considered "casual" hardcore
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I see a lot of comparison between casual and indie games
[Xfire] Artaxs: Well, Narbacular Drop was an Indie Game, but Portal is a (polished, wonderful, innovative and FUN) Corporate game owned by Valve.
Jokәr: Repetitive is not always a bad thing - look at games like Pac-Man and Tetris. they were *only* repeatitive.
oxyhemoglobin: All the Halo games had silly storylines. It was the online community that kept it together.
Ketchup: I think indie games always have the potential to be better, becuase there are no deadlines, there is no need to "play it safe" with certain features - indie games can push and inovate more becuase there is no risk
oxyhemoglobin: But Portal was made by the same team as Narbacular Drop.
Riobux: Casual is a case of hit or miss. You either enjoy casual games just to pick up and love for a quick break or you just can't enjoy them due to the simplicity.
speedrockracer: how importand are graphics i personally think they do play a role in how intense you go in the game
[dec]Chaoman: ok, here'sa question for you since we are talking about graphics: do you think that variability of play is better in a game? or do you think that more areas t oexplore would be better?
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: but the thing is that there can be casual commercial (popcap) or indie hardcore (trying to think up an example :P)
aNti_PXShaman: well graphics do make the game..... if they released a game now adays that looked like it was made in 1995 that game would not sell
.. World ..: If you say so, i,m just sayign repetitive stuff bores me.
[UA]WelehoRogan: Ketchup- actually, I think indie games risk a lot more than any big company
spetnatz0warrior: ya
spetnatz0warrior: i agree
[Xfire] SDaria: *****NEXT QUETSTION******
[14:29] rampantcoyote: If you are indie, create an indie game, and then sell it - lock, stock and barrel - to a publisher, does that mean the game WAS indie, and no longer is?
Jokәr: But alot of times it’s tried and true
[SFV]Android - Chris: well Ketchup, if a indy dev puts out one game and it gets massive attention, people will want him to make another game, and hes going to get pressured there
Sister Grimm™: hmmm...
spetnatz0warrior: is stull is indie
Jokәr: No, it means it never was.
{AFP}Nhb93: Well what exactly is a publisher?
oxyhemoglobin: Pretty much. It was independent. Now it's signed.
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: I think that the development without a publisher makes it still indie
[SFV]Android - Chris: yes, i think rampant's idea is right
.. World ..: The game was indie. Now the game is producer's since he bought the right to publish it
Theranos: Depends on Publisher I say...
[SFV]Android - Chris: no longer indy
spetnatz0warrior: cause if i made one, id stam[p a indie logo
[Xfire] Supercop007: I think Artaxs is right, essentially what made Portal from a good to a great game was the polish Valve's influence added.
speedrockracer: i dont think its indie if the company yuo sell it to chances it
oxyhemoglobin: If you were so desperate to hold onto the "indie" title, they should've held onto it and published it themselves.
Jokәr: I go back to my first point... If no one played it indie, it never was.
oxyhemoglobin: they*
Sister Grimm™: it was orignally indie i gues
Zombie: There is nothing wrong with making money from an indie game
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: What makes indie games great is that if the developer want to add something to it, he will, he won't have to go ask a million person only to know if he have the right to do it and if it will make him get more money.
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: Well we're getting heavily into opinion here.
oxyhemoglobin: No, but it ceases being indie at that point
{AFP}Nhb93: A publisher just helps get the game out of the door. That owuld be like saying if the bank gave you a $10K loan to help with the game that it's no longer indy because it has funding
[SFV]Android - Chris: the second you sell out, you are no longer doing this game as an individual, "indy"
Riobux: It means it's still indie. You still created the game through love and you still put your own ideas into it. It's like Metallica. They were sell outs and because of that, they were hated for their new material. But they are still loved for their old ones.
Jokәr: Debate is all really about opinion, though.
spetnatz0warrior: ye
Theranos: Games like portal are the only ways of taking a Corporate Game and calling it semi-indie
Jokәr: That’s really the essence of it.
Theranos: Does Semi-Indie exist or is it just me?
oxyhemoglobin: Agreed, Theranos
.. World ..: Portal got bought no?
[UA]WelehoRogan: so for you people, innovative=indie?
{AFP}Nhb93: Same
Zombie: As long as it was developed for the GAMERS, I would still call it Indie
Jokәr: No, I don’t think it does.
aNti_PXShaman: It would not be an indie game because people who think they are "cool" will just say they sold out basically
Sister Grimm™: wait... no its still indie because during production you had no corporate backing, you sold it post...
[SFV]Android - Chris: you have the right idea, but i dont think it exists, Theranos
Jokәr: Semi-indie = not indie.
Riobux: True Jokar, but the opinion is out there in the sky and people can take it if they like it.
[TTHS]Lunarbunny: @Zombie I think we're twisting the meaning of indie then
oxyhemoglobin: No, corporate games can be innovative. It's extremely rare, but it happens.
Ketchup: I think it depends on the ethics of the publisher involved
Jokәr: You either are or your arn’t
.. World ..: Portal was made by students, but it got bought after.
[SFV]Android - Chris: Joker has it
spetnatz0warrior: anyone know how many companies orginated from Indie?
{AFP}Nhb93: Not nesecarliyu Rogan. Portal was innovation as was Super Mario Galaxy. Were either indy? Nope.
[UA]WelehoRogan: Exactly.
Riobux: Likely spetnaz, at least 90%.
Jokәr: Yea and then it got bundled into a $50 package - not indie.
speedrockracer: was for example tetis indie it was developed by a student ?
speedrockracer: tetris*
[Xfire] Supercop007: Once millions of dollars are added to promote, polish, edit, and test, I believe it transitions into mainstream.
Riobux: But then money has a habbit of corrupting people :(.
.. World ..: ofc
oxyhemoglobin: True.
Ketchup: I think certain publishers could take over an indie game and still manage to keep the game indie, EA wouldn't have a chance though
[UA]WelehoRogan: Well, corruption wouldn't exist if nothing was of value..
spetnatz0warrior: Indie it like the Father of Gaming companies, id thikn of all games from Indie
#-(OO۩Tony Briere۩ OO)-#: I think indie is more part of a person, when you create your game, you have to think that it's for divertisment/fun only. If not, I don't consider the game that the guy made as an indie game.
Theranos: But I just bought a $30 bundle from Introversion does that mean they aren't indie?
[SFV]Android - Chris: Supercop, there are full scale game companies that wish they had millions, doesnt make it less corporate
Sister Grimm™: this question just takes us back to "WHAT EXACTLY is indie?"
{AFP}Nhb93: Well I don't think Supercop, that an indy game would ever go mainstream. Then it has just turned against what it was.
spetnatz0warrior: ye i gree with tonny
Jokәr: I think once it’s owned by anyone *but* it’s original developer, (including the general public, if it becomes so much of a demand) it stops being indie.
aNti_PXShaman: Chances are, if a company was indie then they made a blockbuster game, and got bought out, I am 100 % sure that the company will force them to make a sequal that probably never be as good
oxyhemoglobin: I agree, Joker