{Return to the Xfire Debate Club main page}

Xfire Debate Club 12th Meeting: Independent Games
January 25th, 2008 (Main Floor Transcript)

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Hello! We are very pleased to welcome everyone to the Xfire Debate Club meeting on the State of Independent Games! Please join me in welcoming our guests!

 

Our moderator, John Bardinelli, will now open with a few words and begin the debate!

 

John Bardinelli: Hi folks! I'm John Bardinelli, a lowly freelance writer who's completely fascinated by the indie gaming scene.

John Bardinelli: Been following the games for a few years, and I'm excited to squeeze some juicy details out of everyone today.

John Bardinelli: We'll be talking about the indie gaming scene as a whole, where it's headed, and how to break into the industry.

John Bardinelli: As predictable as it may be, I'd like everyone to introduce themselves before we begin. Use a haiku if you like!

[Zakelro] Corvus: Man... I didn't prepare a haiku... oh well... Heyo folks! I'm a storyteller with a background in acting, directing, writing, illustration and computer animation. Last year my wife and I started Zakelro (www.zakelro.com), a story studio dedicated exclusively to the exploration and creation of stories across a wide range of media. I now pay the bills writing for and about videogames while I learn everything I need to know to produce The HoneyComb Engine, an open source participatory storytelling framework. You can follow my progress, theories and general impression of the industry at my blog, Man Bytes Blog (http://blog.pjsattic.com/corvus).

[uTime] Xaroth: I wrote PseudoQuest

all by myself, so you know.

+20 exp = lvl 7

[Kongregate] Chris: I'm Chris Pasley.  I was formerly a writer and Game Producer for Adult Swim, but now I'm Director of Games at www.Kongregate.com, where I'm heading up our Premium Games initiative.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: My name is Josiah Pisciotta, owner of Chronic Logic (www.chroniclogic.com).  We have developed games such as Kingdom Elemental, Bridge Construction Set and Gish.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Hey everyone, I'm an indie developer in Seattle. I escaped corporate life a year ago and am enjoying the freedom of doing what I want to do without having to suck up to managers and CEOs. :D

[Rampant Games] Jay: I'm Jay Barnson, AKA Rampant Coyote, of Rampant Games (http://www.rampantgames.com) and Tales of the Rampant Coyote - an indie gaming blog. I've been a pro game developer for *cough*toomanyyears*cough*, and worked on games like Twisted Metal, Warhawk, Jet Moto, Outwars, ECW2, and ... well, some others I won't mention. I went indie in 2004 before I even realized there was such a thing as indie, and I've been involved in the indie dev community ever since.

[uTime] Xaroth: So, in non-haiku form, I'm Geoff Benson, the president of uTime Games (http://www.utimegames.com), a tiny card & board & various games publisher.  I'm the sole author of PseudoQuest (http://www.pseudoquest.com), a free casual humorous RPG, as well as a host of other not-as-publically-visible projects.

[Rampant Games] Jay: However, I'm a part-time indie ... I got sucked back into being a mainstream game developer full-time in 2006.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: At the moment, I run Amaranth Games, a small company devoted to cute RPGs and Adventure games.

[TGC] Jenova Chen: Hi everyone, this is Jenova Chen. I'm a recent video game graduate students, the designer of little indie games like "flOw" and "Cloud". We founded our own game studio called "thatgamecompany", moved "flOw" to the playstation3.

 

John Bardinelli: First things first: what the heck is an "indie game" anyway? A guy in his mom's basement hammering out code? A studio unattached to a publisher? Both? Neither?

John Bardinelli: More your opinion on the phrase than a dictionary definition.

[Zakelro] Corvus: I'd vote for 'both'

[Zakelro] Corvus: Although the concept of 'publisher' is rapidly entering a gray area with the rise of digital distribution.

[Rampant Games] Jay: A game where the control belongs primarily to the developers. Doesn't necessarily mean self-funded, but if you have a mainstream company or some investor or whatnot making the design and development decisions, it's really not indie.

[Zakelro] Corvus: I'd probably argue that any developer that retains the rights to their IP, engine, etc are indie.

[Rampant Games] Jay: If they control the purse strings, they control the development.

[Kongregate] Chris: I think it's actually more of a state of mind than anything.  A desire to create something great without checking your focus group numbers first -- and retaining ownership of your IP.   But really, I agree with Corvus, it's both. 

[uTime] Xaroth: For my money, I'd say both.  There's a lot in common between self-publishers (code-in-basement) and standalone studios.  Both have complete creative control over their own content, pricing and distribution, and both are in charge of their own financials.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Drats, that's a difficult one... especially after I learned this week that an "indie" movie was a production under 24M that could be created by any large or small movie studio. For me, indie = small team, small budget, small company or no company.

[uTime] Xaroth: When I think of "indie", though, I always imagine extremely small operations, where the "company" involved may not even legally exist as such an entity.

John Bardinelli: The "old" (classic?) definition of indie implies small teams, practically no budget, and no real company-type organization.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: Obviously there is no clear definition, but I agree it is a idea more then anything else.  Working to make games you want to make.  Not having to answer to anyone other then yourself.

[uTime] Xaroth: Well, maybe the players, if you're nice about it, Josiah.  ;)

[TGC] Jenova Chen: If you look at what is Indie in the movie industry. It pretty much means something "unconventional". Because of that, they don't get a lot of budget to execute it. So if you have 20 million dollars out of your pocket  to work on a game, it is likely to consider not Indie if the game is rather conventional.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: I think that larger companies like to wrap the word "indie" around them... It makes them look more like a rebel...

Chronic Logic - Josiah: I like the definition, the owners of the game are also the employees

[Zakelro] Corvus: I fear that we're reaching a point, like the music industry did in the 90's, that 'indie' will become a marketing term for "studio EA hasn't purchased yet."

[Rampant Games] Jay: An ethic, true. If you have to answer to anyone other than your customers about your game - it's not indie.

[Kongregate] Chris: I kind of hate definitions and labels like that though.  It leads to bad arguments -- are you "indie" enough?  ;) 

[Rampant Games] Jay: Incidentally, a Microsoft-owned studio here in Utah labeled themselves "Indie Built" a few years back.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: Well you can answer to the players, but you don't have too, if you want to just make the game for yourself you are still indie :)

[Zakelro] Corvus: To quote MC Frontalot, "I'm so indie if I was on an indie label you could call me mainstream."

[uTime] Xaroth: I'll cede that.

[TGC] Jenova Chen: After all, it has nothing to do with the physical conditions such as team size or money resource. If you purely just define indie by the physical conditions, I think Valve is a great indiependent game developer

Chronic Logic - Josiah: true

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: And maybe at one time they were. I suppose we all are at one time or another.

[uTime] Xaroth: Well, Valve's a sticky widget now that they've entered the publishing business.

John Bardinelli: You know, Spore is being developed using a lot of philosophies traditionally reserved for indie games (creative freedom, etc.)...

[Zakelro] Corvus: Sam with Popcap. They were indie at one point. Now they're a juggernaut.

[Zakelro] Corvus: Yeah, but Will is still tied to the EA pursestrings.

[uTime] Xaroth: If "indie" game development in general reflects my own (in)ability to meet deadlines, then you're probably right about Spore.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Well, when indie becomes "just" a marketing term, we will need to come up with something new and crazy to describe us.

John Bardinelli: There's a whole world of possibilities in the indie movement. From Cactus' one-man-team Game Maker games to Valve, they all seem to fall under the same umbrella term.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Lol, I think the inability to meet deadlines isn't an indie problem.

[Zakelro] Corvus: (or are their purse-strings tied to him?)

Chronic Logic - Josiah: for me there is a big difference between working for X amount of $ pretty much no matter what you do (unless you really screw up and get fired) or working for next to nothing, but with dreams as big as you can dream them, that is indie

John Bardinelli: EA essentially told Will to do whatever he wanted, gave him complete freedom.

[Rampant Games] Jay: The basic idea, though, is that the indies are rejecting the traditional method of getting your games to market - which basically comes down to begging a publisher to fund you and publish you.

[TGC] Jenova Chen: At this point, I feel there's no point to divide games into Indie and non-indie. We make and play games. Just make the best possible game you can think of for the players.

[uTime] Xaroth: Amanda: I couldn't help but take the dig at Spore (and myself).  ;)

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: to meet deadlines isn't an indie problem.

[Kongregate] Chris: I absolutely agree with that, jenova.

[Rampant Games] Jay: An indie basically says to the publishers, "Here's my game. Publishers, if you want a piece of it, you can talk to me. Otherwise, get out of my way."

John Bardinelli: Jenova: Yes! But we like labels. :-)

Chronic Logic - Josiah: I agree with jenova as well except I think makes the games you want to play, don't try and figure out what other people want.

 

John Bardinelli: Indie is an attitude?

[Rampant Games] Jay: An approach.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Lol, sorry Xaroth! *evil grin*

[Zakelro] Corvus: A philosohy

[Zakelro] Corvus: only spelled correctly

[uTime] Xaroth: Maybe happenstance.  Some people don't even realize they're "indie" game developers - they just start making something and putting it online for people to play with.

[TGC] Jenova Chen: A philosophy or a spirit that is not bounded by the market and publisher

Chronic Logic - Josiah: A philosophy :)

 

John Bardinelli: So the possibilities for an indie developer really aren't limited?

[Rampant Games] Jay: That's the coolness of it.

[uTime] Xaroth: Agreed 100%.

[TGC] Jenova Chen: Currently thatgamecompany's next game Flower is funded by Sony, however, there's nobody coming to tell us what to make. We have complete creative freedom. So I still consider Flower as an indie game.

[uTime] Xaroth: Well, now there's a question.  (not to trample on John's feet here...)  Who gets to decide whether something is "indie" or not?

Chronic Logic - Josiah: that ties right into what is indie, if you have unlimited funds and complete creative control then the game is still indie right?

[uTime] Xaroth: (And also not to say Flower isn't indie, of course)

[Zakelro] Corvus: I  know that I face limitations of time, talent and resources. But it's a struggle I get to deal with on my own, not an artificial constraint imposed by an outside party.

[Rampant Games] Jay: That's the whole indie thing... indie means you don't have to answer to anyone as to whether or not you are indie :)

Chronic Logic - Josiah: hehe

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: I don't know... I think when you are tied to a large company, you're not at indie as you would like to beleive...

[uTime] Xaroth: I agree. Funding is not the primary differentiator; control is.

[uTime] Xaroth: Whether funding means control is a separate point, I think.

[Kongregate] Chris: I dunno. I think the label is only important in that it gets like-minded people together under an umbrella of philosophies.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: I agree I think being indie is about creative control over your work

[Rampant Games] Jay: More than just creative control though

John Bardinelli: Short definition: indie developers are people who makes games, not people who make products to sell.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: I think Sony may say you are "indie" but to them, you are just another node of the company. An independent node, but still managed by them on a very high level.

[Zakelro] Corvus: I agree, Chris. Defining indie is great as long as it serves to unify and instrigate conversation. As soon as it's used to exclude... it's a less-than-useful term

[uTime] Xaroth: John: that's not necessarily true.  Some of us indie devs would like to recoup or exceed our development costs.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: I think most of us would :)

[Rampant Games] Jay: Yeah. Many indies are very much professionals... and very much commercial.

John Bardinelli: Of course! But I'm saying the game isn't created for the sole purpose of selling copies, it's created because the team has a desire to create it.

[TGC] Jenova Chen: Why don't we define games as "art vs commercial" rather than "indie vs non-indie"?

[uTime] Xaroth: Well, most of us in this room, perhaps.  I'm sure there's hundreds of people putting indie games up on newgrounds that do it simply for the fun of it, or for recognition, or some other motivator.  Ditto for OSS games.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: but would we stop doing it if we knew we would not recoup those costs?

John Bardinelli: The "are games art?" argument might pop up! ;-)

[uTime] Xaroth: I'll agree with that sentiment, John.  I know that, as a beginner into the field of "trying to make money from my games", the fact that I'm hemmhoraging money doesn't stop me.

[uTime] Xaroth: If I can't afford the server costs for some reason, I'd just move it (back) to my home 'net connection.

[Kongregate] Chris: Like, are the Premium Games we're doing for Kongregate indie?  They're being made by independent developers, but we fund them and I'm very involved in the creative process.  You could say I'm sticking my nose in them, but I try to push them to new unusual excesses than to restrict.  Yet they still seem pretty indie to me.  They retain all ownership.

[Zakelro] Corvus: I'm pretty much counting on not making any money with my games.

[Zakelro] Corvus: Which is why I'm building other income streams into my workday.

[uTime] Xaroth: Agreed, Corvus.  Maybe eventually something will hit big and pay the bills, but until then I'll still need a good day job.

[Rampant Games] Jay: If I won the lottery today and was set for life, I'd still make games for fun. Or actually fund a small indie company to pay for costs. :)

[Zakelro] Corvus: I really think that retaining ownership is the key.

[Zakelro] Corvus: Will Wright isn't indie because at the end of the day, EA owns the results of his labor.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: that is a good point

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Marketing is everything, Corvus. When the game development is finished, you're only 35% through the battle... Don't forget that part.

[Rampant Games] Jay: If you are indie, create an indie game, and then sell it - lock, stock and barrel - to a publisher, does that mean the game WAS indie, and no longer is?

[Rampant Games] Jay: Amanda is 1000% correct. That was a rough lesson to learn.

John Bardinelli: If I saw a commercial on TV for flOw, that doesn't make it any less indie, I think.

John Bardinelli: Although it would carry that "betrayal to the man" stigma often associated with any independent movement within a media.

[Zakelro] Corvus: My life is marketing my product, Amanda. ;-)

[uTime] Xaroth: If we accept that it's control over the IP that defines indie-ness, then selling the IP to someone else would change its status in the eyes of many, I suspect.

[TGC] Jenova Chen: Every year on Sundance film festival ,there will always be several indie movies picked up by the hollywood and distributed in the theaters

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Lol, then you'll probably blow many of us out of the water!

[uTime] Xaroth: As soon as "IndieGame 2: Electric Bugaloo" comes out, then you know that the indie flavor has run out.

 

John Bardinelli: You can watch an indie movie and know it's different from a Hollywood film. Can you do the same with indie games?

[uTime] Xaroth: Though, I'd probably play a game with that title.  I may *write* a game with that title, come to think of it.

[Zakelro] Corvus: I do think that indie games have a certain... resonance, yes.

[Rampant Games] Jay: Indie games kinda defy all description because they do run the full spectrum - from complete garbage to extremely polished, incredible stuff. Could you tell it was an "indie game?" Sometimes.

[uTime] Xaroth: Usually the developers' website is a dead giveaway, though not always.  ;)

[Zakelro] Corvus: The same could be said about movies, Jay.

[Rampant Games] Jay: I find that indie games - because they are created by smaller teams, usually have a more unified voice and personality to them. They are quirky. Spikey.

[Kongregate] Chris: I don't think so.  There are quite a few "non-indie" games (and movies) that embrace what was often thought of as the "indie" aesthetic.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: Also if you are making games instead of trying to make money you can take a lot more risks in your design, which make the game different

Chronic Logic - Josiah: but then again you see a lot of people who would be called "indie" trying to make the same game as everyone else because the last one made money

John Bardinelli: That's actually a point I'd like to brush on: clones.

[uTime] Xaroth: On the one hand, indie games have a tendency to push the boundaries of what's known in the medium, which makes them easy to pick out.  On the other, they're frequently clones of other popular things that people have seen (how many tower defense clones have we seen this past year?), which also helps.  However, these aren't sure indicators.  Without knowing the status of the creators, it's hard to say for sure.

[Rampant Games] Jay: Look at how casual has kinda broken away from "indie" - it was once indie, because it was too much of a niche market to be mainstream.

[Rampant Games] Jay: Now, it's the Big Thing

Chronic Logic - Josiah: yeah, EA has a casual games department

[Rampant Games] Jay: And the major publishers are trying to see how they can cash in on it. Exactly.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: i rather like the seperation of casual and indie games

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: I'm sure that many indies clone games not because they want to make money, but because they want to relive the experience that a specific game provided.

[uTime] Xaroth: I might argue that casual has been a sleeper "big thing" for a while, thinking back to Yahoo! Games.

[Rampant Games] Jay: Well, look at Tetris, Xaroth

[Zakelro] Corvus: Not to mention Pogo.com, which is now owned by EA

[Rampant Games] Jay: All games are clones at some level. It's how much the developer brings to the mix.

[uTime] Xaroth: I suspect that many indie devs make clones to learn more about making games.  Many "bejeweled" and "tetris" clones I see out there are the devs' first games.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: I am sure some indie games are clones because they want to improve or relive the game experience, if you like at the casual game moment I think a lot where attempts to make money

Chronic Logic - Josiah: look at the casual games

Chronic Logic - Josiah: Not like :)

John Bardinelli: The intention of the designer could be a huge factor...

[Kongregate] Chris: I think many indie developers clone games because they're desperate to make money, and the main dialog that's been happening in that space is pure monetization.  Very difficult to find a conversation about the art of casual games among developers.  Very easy to find one about selling your Match-3 clone.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: I started making games because I missed Kings Quest and Final Fantasy I-III. I'll admit that my games are a lot like these types of games because I love them so much.

[Rampant Games] Jay: Sure. Are you trying to cash in, or are you making a game in the style of one you love?

John Bardinelli: "I wanted to make Tetris with frogs" is a little more indie than "I wanted to make Tetris 'cause people buy that"

[uTime] Xaroth: Heh.  That's true - I glom onto the old 16-bit RPG style because I enjoy them so much.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: yeah exactly there is a difference there

John Bardinelli: And it's usually the mainstream publishers that push for games that people buy.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: i think most people probably get into making games because they play games and think, I want to play a game like this but better in this and that

[Rampant Games] Jay: Part of it is "building a better mousetrap."

Chronic Logic - Josiah: right

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: I wonder how many money-driven "cloners" survive in this industry? Nevermind, probably a lot of them! :D

[uTime] Xaroth: That's a dangerous statement there, John.  If someone is making a game to make money, but retains full control over the project, does that suddenly not make them an independent developer?

[uTime] Xaroth: I would argue that this is not the case.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: i dont think it is the case either but it is a very different approach

[Rampant Games] Jay: The problem with mainstream is that - IMO - the more you seek the widest possible market, the more you end up making games (or any medium) for the lowest common denominator.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: then again I have never tried it :)

[TGC] Jenova Chen: the indie in Indiependent Developer is not the same as indie game

[uTime] Xaroth: Sure, it's not as creative as many indie games to make a clone-for-cash, but the status of the developer seems the same to my eyes.

[Rampant Games] Jay: Indies can thrive in the niches where mainstream cannot.

[Rampant Games] Jay: Could EA support an entire team doing games reminiscent of 16-bit console RPGs? I doubt it.

John Bardinelli: Good point, Jenova.

[uTime] Xaroth: EA can't, but Atlas does.  ;)

[uTime] Xaroth: (see also the newly released Growlanser games)

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: So very true, rampantcoyote.

John Bardinelli: Ok, if I may switch topics just a bit...

[uTime] Xaroth: Overall, you're right though.  Indie games definitely fill niches that larger developers cannot.

[Kongregate] Chris: I just wish people would talk more about pushing casual game design forward.  Instead any company trying to make it as a casual games developer is forced to make clones because that's all publishers will buy these days.  So it's a choice -- work a day job or make a few clones. 

[Kongregate] Chris: But I guess yo could call these guys "not indie"

[Rampant Games] Jay: Hmmm - yeah, good point. Portals are becoming the new publishers, on some levels.

[TGC] Jenova Chen: I would rather define indie from the player's perspective. After all a financially independent studio might still be making cliche games that players won't call "indie / art game".

Chronic Logic - Josiah: true

 

John Bardinelli: Digital distribution makes it easier to sell games, cut and paste programs make it so you don't have to be a programming genius to make a game. But it's still no easy ride. In your experience (or opinion), what's the biggest obstacle independent developers face today?

Chronic Logic - Josiah: an indie studio could have nothing more in mind then making the latest clone to cash in on the trend, and in the process make some of the worst games, but they would still be an indie studio and indie games

[Rampant Games] Jay: Getting attention.

[uTime] Xaroth: First, development time.  Next, finding an audience.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: agreed

[Zakelro] Corvus: Yeah, finding your market.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Chris, I think that casual game portals are looking for a style of game, not a type. Make something that fits the style and that is interesting, and you will probably get in.

[uTime] Xaroth: The long tail predicts that there's an audience out there for almost anything you can make, but trying to find those people is hard, especially for someone new to the process.

[Rampant Games] Jay: I'm a huge fan of indie RPGs  - and I HUNT DOWN indie RPGs. And I'm still learning - every week - of new or old RPGs that I have never even heard of.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: although I still would say making the actual game is no walk in the park :)

[Zakelro] Corvus: Although there are numerous gaming sites just eager for soething fresh to report that can help with that.

[uTime] Xaroth: We'll see you on PseudoQuest, then, rampantcoyote.  ;)

[Rampant Games] Jay: If it's hard for me - someone actively searching for these kinds of games - how hard is it for someone who WOULD like those kinds of games but just assumes "nobody makes them like that anymore."

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: If worse comes to worse, you can create your own channel of distribution.

[Kongregate] Chris: Amanda, I don't think so.  I remember reading one thread on an indie board about a developer who was trying to get his games on a portal site and they flatly said "No, we're only looking for Hidden Object and Diner Dash games."

[Rampant Games] Jay: Heh - Amanda describes right there, "The Indie Way," IMO.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: You just have to figure out where to find your players and how to organize them into a horde of loyal followers!

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: One thing that I've learned... You control your own destiney. We forget this... a lot! If no one is going to build you a mud hut, do it yourself!

Chronic Logic - Josiah: The problem with portals is that if your game is niche enough they are not going to be interested

[uTime] Xaroth: Finding that audience is awesome when it happens.  When I launched PQ after over a year's worth of spare-time development, I was amazed to watch them map out the whole thing into a wiki in under two weeks.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Er... or should I say... let you in to their mud hut. :D

Chronic Logic - Josiah: controlling your own distribution goes right along with your mud hut :)

[Rampant Games] Jay: A lot of times the portals aren't interested in your game until it starts selling a ton. Then suddenly, they get interested.

[Kongregate] Chris: True -- but I think people overlook the value of niche.  That niche crowd is hungry. ;)

Chronic Logic - Josiah: yep

[uTime] Xaroth: Meeting all those players makes it all worthwhile.

[uTime] Xaroth: I agree with Amanda completely.  Take charge!

[Rampant Games] Jay: That's the indie approach. You aren't constrained by The System. Whether it's the publishers, the portals, or your grandmother.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: And this is when you have to take control and work like mad to market your game. When I released Aveyond, I was getting a measly 2-6 purchases a day. After six months of marketing, the tide slowly turned. It takes time to build something that sells well.

[Rampant Games] Jay: You work with them when it works for you, or work around them, or shout them down.

[Rampant Games] Jay: However, a lot of Aveyond's success also came from when it finally got on the portals, too.

[Rampant Games] Jay: Correct?

John Bardinelli: Alright, the question room has been opened and we've got some good ones for you guys...

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: I think you are right on, rampant!

 

John Bardinelli: [TTHS]Lunarbunny: What methods seem to work the best for getting the word out about an indie game?

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Sort of, but by the time this happened, it was selling quite well.

[uTime] Xaroth: To start with, word-of-mouth.  Friends who saw the game at its beginning telling other friends, and so on.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Portals don't hurt. They are a great revenue stream, but they are one of many if you look hard enough.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: Word of mouth is probably the easiest cause it just goes, but first you need to make a game people are going to want to talk about

[Zakelro] Corvus: I was given a free copy of the game Audiosurf a few weeks ago and I've been mentioning it everywhere I go. I've also submitted a review of it to the Escapist.

[Rampant Games] Jay: As soon as one method works and works well, everyone does it and it changes.

[TGC] Jenova Chen: *Attending game festivals and awards

*Make your game accessible online so more people are willling to try it out

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: For me, I did a lot of guerilla marketing on the web. And PromoSoft is my friend!

[Zakelro] Corvus: So be generous with your time and product and word of mouth will carry you a long ways.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: door to door

 

John Bardinelli: #-(OO۩Tony  Briere۩ OO)-#: How do you get your original ideas for your games, do you take ideas from other games or you just have an idea like this that comes from nowhere?

[Rampant Games] Jay: Getting slashdotted. If you are way lucky. That might not get you sales, though :)

[uTime] Xaroth: "Excuse me sir, would you like to play a game?  Sure!  We all would - ow.  My foot."

[Kongregate] Chris: Well, for Flash games, spread is all-important.  There are a lot of flash portal sites and they're ravenous for new games.  Hook yourself a sponsorship or license your game and spread your game as far as possible.  If your games any good they'll likely take them.  Once you get enough people playing, they start to grow on their own.

[Zakelro] Corvus: Audiosurf is an indie game and IGF 08 Finalist, by the way. You can read more about it here: www.audio-surf.com

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: You know... I've also been thinking about Anime conferences... They are getting very popular....

[Rampant Games] Jay: A combination of all of the above...

[uTime] Xaroth: As a follow-up to jenova's comment, can any of you recommend any game festivals that people (either indie devs or indie games players) should check out?

[Zakelro] Corvus: Well, there's the IGD and Slamdance...

[Zakelro] Corvus: IGF, I mean to say

[uTime] Xaroth: Re: game ideas - mine usually come from random elements in my environment.  I'll see something and say "I could make a game out of that."

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: I hired Joe Lieberman to do a lot of marketing. I knew pretty much nothing until he came along and showed me how it was done. Arcadetown owns him now.

[TGC] Jenova Chen: *Annual Indie Game Festival on CMP's Game Developer Conference

*SlamDance Festival Game Compeitition

*Indiecade - an indepdent game exhibition

[uTime] Xaroth: Maybe if we're nice, the people making the transcripts will pull out links for these festivals for people.  ;)

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: I love the Casual Connect conferences.

 

John Bardinelli: W00tbeer1: Do you ever play the games you create on your own free time?

[Kongregate] Chris: Hiring a good PR person is a huge thing. Ours is great, even better than the whole Turner PR department when I worked at Adult Swim -- and she's just one person. ;)  Tons of press that way.

[Zakelro] Corvus: It's the other way around for me, W00tbeer. I'm now developing the game I've been playing in my spare time for the last 17 years

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: I do! It's fun and a little sad...

[Rampant Games] Jay: Heh - I go back and play most of my games (my indie ones and my mainstream ones) from time to time.

[uTime] Xaroth: Absolutely. I'm level 12!

Chronic Logic - Josiah: By the time I am finished with a game I have normally played it more then enough, so no I dont normally play them in my spare time.  However when I try and work on some of our games I find myself playing them all of a sudden instead of actually doing any work :)

[uTime] Xaroth: I also break out my card/board games any time I get the opportunity.

[Kongregate] Chris: I do, but I admit to being a little burned out on them by the end, and I usually have to move on to the next one pretty quickly.

[Rampant Games] Jay: Yeah, absence makes the heart grow fonder.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: One of the coolest parts about making a game is that you get to play it before anyone else. :D

[TGC] Jenova Chen: I think most the time I'm pretty sick of my game by the end of the development because I played too many of it while developing it

 

John Bardinelli: And to rounds things out today, several chatters want to know what each of your favorite games are.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: X-com!

Chronic Logic - Josiah: Civ2

[TGC] Jenova Chen: DOTA

[Zakelro] Corvus: Ooo. Ultima Underworld, X-COM, System Shock (the first one)

[Zakelro] Corvus: Sanitarium, Nord and BErt Couldn't Make Head Nor Tails of It

[Rampant Games] Jay: Wing Commander, once upon a time. Currently - Portal. Huge fan of the old Ultimas.

[uTime] Xaroth: Favorite games... so hard to pick.  Phantasy Star 2&4 rank highly, Civilization 4, SimCity 4, Bioshock, Joust, Twinkle Star Sprites (bonus points to anyone that's even *heard* of this game)...

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: King's Quest, A Tale of Two Kingdoms (free indie game), Tibia, Final Fantasy... All of them!!!

[Kongregate] Chris: That is so tough...I hate having to choose one over the others....right now, its BioShock.  They did amazing things with player agency in that game, among all the other amazing things they did.

[Rampant Games] Jay: Easier to break it out by genre.

[uTime] Xaroth: ...the FF series (I even liked 8, in its own way), Shining Force 1-3, the new Fire Embliem...

[uTime] Xaroth: I should probably stop listing games before I get banned for flooding the channel.

Chronic Logic - Josiah: heh

[Kongregate] Chris: I did love Final Fantasy II (IV) to death.  I liked 8!  What was wrong with 8?  ;)

[uTime] Xaroth: Here's what was wrong with 8:  Absorb (you got 1x Ultima) Absorb (you got 1x Ultima) Absorb (you got 1x Ultima) Absorb (you got 1x Ultima) Absorb (you got 1x Ultima)

 

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: That concludes the first Debate Club meeting of the year on the State of Independent Games! Thank you very much to our special guests for joining us on Xfire, and thank you everyone for participating.

[Zakelro] Corvus: Thanks everybody!

[Kongregate] Chris: Thanks!

 [Rampant Games] Jay: Great to chat about my favorite subject! :)

[TGC] Jenova Chen: Thanks for having me :)

[Zakelro] Corvus: Use the contact form at Man Bytes Blog if you want to keep asking questions!

Chronic Logic - Josiah: Thanks everyone!

John Bardinelli: Great discussions folks, this chat should be required reading for anyone calling themselves an indie developer!

[uTime] Xaroth: Thank you everyone!  It was a joy to participate with such esteemed persons!

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention anything related to Elder Scrolls. It's so much fun to be evil in that game.

[Zakelro] Corvus: Thanks John, great job.

[Amaranth Games] Amanda F: Thanks!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox: Thank you all!

[Xfire-TTHS] Debateox:

Now for prizes!

 

The following 5 people will receive a prize pack containing:

 

(1) copy of Chronic Logic's "Gish"

(1) game from Amaranth Games

(1) copy of Rampant Games' "Void War"

(1) uTime Games prize pack (a copy of "Dough Nuts!" and 800 gold in "PseudoQuest")

(1) Xfire T-shirt

 

Riobux

{AFP}Nhb93

Recon.

[TTHS]Lunarbunny

Ketchup

 

If you are one of the winners PM me for instructions on how to claim your prize!